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John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #75 on: September 24, 2013, 12:48:39 PM »
Results will be skewed as everyone isn't looking at the same picture.  Here are my top 5 with comments.

5. Common Ground.  Great team effort.  Close to perfect for what it is and that is important.  Good grassing decisions for high volume, affordable and fun, mostly restrained greens.  A gift to golf and worth including.

Others:

OldMac.  Very good themed course/less freedom, Doak as Mackenzie instead of Doak as Doak.  Great fescue!, fun greens.  Challenging walk and forced to do so.  Not nearly as good (to me) as Pacific Dunes.  Very good, but overrated.

Do you really think Common Ground is better than Old Macdonald?  I would agree it's good for what it is, but cannot see any way to prefer that course.  (note:  you might want to correct your Mac)

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #76 on: September 24, 2013, 12:52:03 PM »
Barnbougle
Old Macdonald
Ballyneal
St. Andrews Beach
Sebonack
Pacific Dunes
High Pointe (if it were still around)
Streamsong Blue
Legends Heathland
Common Ground
Quail Crossing
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 09:17:20 AM by John Mayhugh »

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #77 on: September 24, 2013, 12:53:24 PM »
Tom, following up on my earlier post, I looked up the old GCA rankings.  Here is how GCAers ranked your courses.  I put each course's overall world ranking in parentheses, followed by its average score...

1.  Pac Dunes (11 -- 9.28)

2.  Ballyneal (16 -- 8.82)

3.  Barnbougle (24 -- 8.60)

4.  Cape Kidnappers (36 -- 8.27)

5.  Sebonack (44 -- 8.00)

6.  Rock Creek (46 -- 8.00)

Maybe I missed something, but that's all I saw.  The rankings came out too early for Old Mac, which obviously would rank high, likely top 50 world and top six or seven Doak.  Streamsong also would probably rank high -- probably near the top 100 world and a top ten Doak.  I bet Dismal Doak will break in as another GCA world top 50 and top five or six Doak.  

All these come from the raw stats, with no massaging.  

Would be interesting to do the unofficial world rankings again in another few years, and see how they compare with the last one.

Seems real likely to me that in the unofficial GCA rankings, Tom now has 7 of the world's top 50 courses; and once Dismal is finished and opens, will have 8 of the top 50.  


John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #78 on: September 24, 2013, 12:55:23 PM »
I think it is fair to assume that Doak has matured and improved as an architect sine Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal. Don't fight it.

(holding up left index finger for effect)

Perhaps, old friend, but Ballyneal has unusually great land for golf.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #79 on: September 24, 2013, 01:11:02 PM »
I think it is fair to assume that Doak has matured and improved as an architect sine Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal. Don't fight it.

Based on this logic the Punchbowl is the best thing he's ever designed.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #80 on: September 24, 2013, 01:14:30 PM »
I think it is fair to assume that Doak has matured and improved as an architect sine Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal. Don't fight it.

(holding up left index finger for effect)

Perhaps, old friend, but Ballyneal has unusually great land for golf.

You might try a different finger . . .
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #81 on: September 24, 2013, 01:15:23 PM »
Only played 3 so my vote won't count, but--
Pac Dunes
Old Mac
Sebonack

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #82 on: September 24, 2013, 01:20:27 PM »
I think it is fair to assume that Doak has matured and improved as an architect sine Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal. Don't fight it.

Based on this logic the Punchbowl is the best thing he's ever designed.

No, some sites and owners are better than others. Punchbowl might be the best.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #83 on: September 24, 2013, 01:21:13 PM »
Punchbowl looks pretty fun.
Mr Hurricane

Tom Ferrell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #84 on: September 24, 2013, 01:39:07 PM »
1. Ballyneal
2. Old Mac
3. Pac Dunes
4. Apache Stronghold
5. Streamsong Blue

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #85 on: September 24, 2013, 01:47:12 PM »
I need to go play another one just so my vote counts:

1) Barnbougle Dunes
2) Pacific Dunes
3) Legends Heathland
4) Apache Stronghold..

... at this point, I checked the Renaissance Golf Website just to be sure... and realized two things: I played Riverfront in VA without realizing it was a Doak design... and therefore it goes in at No.5.

Also, someone needs to update the Renaissance site. Streamsong is still listed as New Work - 2011.
Next!

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #86 on: September 24, 2013, 01:48:10 PM »
Why not...

1. Pacific Dunes
2. Old Macdonald
3. Ballyneal
4. Streamsong Blue
5. Common Grounds

I am guessing based on what I saw, Dismal will be similar to where Streamsong is.

Shane Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #87 on: September 24, 2013, 01:50:20 PM »
I have only played three Doak courses so I'll refrain from posting my rankings but has no one seriously included The Rawls course in their list?  Maybe I missed it.  

It certainly isn't in the BN, PD, RCCC, Dismal, OM, Sebonack discussion but what about the others - say Commonground, Apache, High Pointe, etc.


Jeffrey Stein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #88 on: September 24, 2013, 01:51:01 PM »
9/9 Pac Dunes-- 50+ plays            A never ending challenge in any condition
8/9 Cape Kidnappers--30+ plays     Doesn't get enough credit because of location, unique site, awesome greens
7/9 Barnbougle--2 plays                Most fun I've ever had with a putter in my hand
6/9 Old Mac-- 20+ plays               Can't beat the location, unique and inspiring set of greens
5/9 Ballyneal- 4 plays                   Unbelievable ground for golf, a surprise around every corner, perfect transitions
4/9 Dismal River--                        Grow In Play-- fun in the shaggy stuff, should stand out/rise over time
3/9 High Pointe-- 1 play               First time I had ever seen a "punchbowl" green!  Back Nine was outstanding
2/9 Sheep Ranch-3 plays              Simple and fun
1/9 Sebonack--   1 play               Only course where I can say I actually didn't "like" a particular hole
I love the smell of hydroseed in the morning.
www.steingolf.com

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #89 on: September 24, 2013, 02:00:27 PM »
Why not...

1. Pacific Dunes
2. Old Macdonald
3. Ballyneal
4. Streamsong Blue
5. Common Grounds

I am guessing based on what I saw, Dismal will be similar to where Streamsong is.

I can't believe I forgot about Tumble Creek...

1. Pacific Dunes
2. Old Mac
3. Ballyneal
4. Streamsong Blue
5. Tumble Creek
6. Commongrounds

Ryan Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #90 on: September 24, 2013, 02:08:05 PM »
1. Pac Dunes
2. Old Mac
3. Streamsong Blue
4. Black Forest at Wilderness Valley
5. High Pointe

Ryan
"Bandon is like Chamonix for skiers or the North Shore of Oahu for surfers,” Rogers said. “It is where those who really care end up."

Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #91 on: September 24, 2013, 02:11:42 PM »
Ballyneal
Pacific Dunes
Dismal Red
Streamsong Blue
Sebonack
Common Ground
Rawls
Legends Heathland

Jim Colton

Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #92 on: September 24, 2013, 02:15:16 PM »
Tom,

  Gotta ask...what is the genesis for starting this thread? Is it the continued lack of recognition of Rock Creek, initial feedback from the Ren Cup or something else entirely? Other than RCCC, it seems that your courses are all highly regarded in the publications. I think Dismal River Red will debut top 5 modern next year in Golfweek [unless Brad's rater notebook deems it should go somewhere else first :)] and will be well received by Golf Digest panelists whenever it gets the visits to qualify.

Chris_Hufnagel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #93 on: September 24, 2013, 02:20:45 PM »
1. Pacific Dunes
2. Ballyneal
3. Old Macdonald
4. High Pointe
5. Sheep Ranch
6. Black Forest
7. Beechtree

I am excited to see Streamsong next March on Howard's trip and hopefully I will be able to get out to Dismal River and RCCC sooner, not later...

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #94 on: September 24, 2013, 02:22:39 PM »
Anybody else reading this thread and feeling bad for Legends Heathland and Quail Crossing?  
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Peter Ferlicca

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #95 on: September 24, 2013, 02:24:01 PM »
I have the pleasure of working at two Tom Doak courses and love his courses.

1.  Ballyneal
2.  Rock Creek Cattle Company
3.  Old MacDonald
4.  Pacific Dunes
5.  Stone Eagle
6.  Tumble Creek
7.  Commonground

Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #96 on: September 24, 2013, 02:28:53 PM »
Anybody else reading this thread and feeling bad for Legends Heathland and Quail Crossing?  


Michael,

What is one of your favorite bands?

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #97 on: September 24, 2013, 02:37:18 PM »
Results will be skewed as everyone isn't looking at the same picture.  Here are my top 5 with comments.

5. Common Ground.  Great team effort.  Close to perfect for what it is and that is important.  Good grassing decisions for high volume, affordable and fun, mostly restrained greens.  A gift to golf and worth including.

Others:

OldMac.  Very good themed course/less freedom, Doak as Mackenzie instead of Doak as Doak.  Great fescue!, fun greens.  Challenging walk and forced to do so.  Not nearly as good (to me) as Pacific Dunes.  Very good, but overrated.

Do you really think Common Ground is better than Old Macdonald?  I would agree it's good for what it is, but cannot see any way to prefer that course.  (note:  you might want to correct your Mac)


John,

I think common ground is really special, more so for what it is.  Course-to-course, they're probably not in the same league.

My "Mac" was a mistake, I confused my bag for the theme.  ;)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #98 on: September 24, 2013, 02:37:44 PM »
Tom,

  Gotta ask...what is the genesis for starting this thread? Is it the continued lack of recognition of Rock Creek, initial feedback from the Ren Cup or something else entirely? Other than RCCC, it seems that your courses are all highly regarded in the publications. I think Dismal River Red will debut top 5 modern next year in Golfweek [unless Brad's rater notebook deems it should go somewhere else first :)] and will be well received by Golf Digest panelists whenever it gets the visits to qualify.

Jim:

All of the above, and none of the above.  I get a lot of questions from clients about where their courses should rank, or why, and I've lost the ability to respond ... that's the first reason.  Streamsong, in particular, is not rated nearly as highly as I expected, and certainly not as highly as the client had hoped.  I was really happy with how it played, both for the best players at the Renaissance Cup, and in a casual round with my wife.  But, it's about my tenth-best course in this informal poll, and I really couldn't tell you which courses it should be ahead of ... except that it should be ahead of 99.9% of the courses in Florida, several of which make the top 100 lists.

It's also fascinating to see how so many people profess to know what's what of my courses, when hardly anyone here has even played seven of the top ten!  From that standpoint, it has been a very informative poll.  ;)

I would be [pleasantly] surprised if Dismal River debuts in the top 5 modern courses, considering that it's neck and neck with Sebonack and Rock Creek in this poll -- and all three are slightly ahead of Old Macdonald.  But, as I say, it's hard for me to separate myself from the rankings at this point.

I do have a sense that the rankings of my own courses are too focused on the competition between themselves, rather than a broader look at where they fit into the best courses in the world.  Cape Kidnappers does far better in the rankings than in this poll -- is that because it's in New Zealand, or because it is so different than most of my other work?

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #99 on: September 24, 2013, 02:56:58 PM »
My top four are essentially neck and neck. I find that I have no great  for placing one above the other. If I could I would rank them 1a,b,c,d. If not then I would put them in this order and I would not be able to properly articulate why they are where they are (in fact, I have changed the order several times while making this post :D)

Pacific Dunes
Ballyneal
Dismal Red
Old Mac

Tumble Creek
CommonGround