Golfbaan de Swinkelsche - post Buda photos and discussion

[John Mayhugh]

Hole 10     Par 4, 428/446
A long classic style par 4 with a green sloping front to back, tough to make par, another 4.5










Definitely a par 4.5.   The first bunker on the right is reachable.  There is plenty of room left of it, but having the line of trees makes that feel tighter.  Plenty of room between the second fairway bunker and the green, though it didn't look that way from the fairway. The left greenside bunker should push you to aim right, but deception about the fairway bunker location makes that less comfortable.

[Frank Pont]

A tough start for the second nine, the 10th hole is at first glance fairly straightforward affair. With a green defended on the left the optimal way in is from the right, which is defended by two bunkers, the first for the long hitters, the second to make the second shot of mere mortals more interesting.





It's the green however that makes the hole unusual, in that it is a green that is not designed to hold a long iron shot in. The reason is that the green is raised, slopes quite a bit from front to back and there is a TOC hole 4 style knob right where one would normally would want to land a ball. The fact that the green does not hold long shots causes aggravation especially for the better players who want to make a 4, because their puzzle is what approach gives them the highest probability of that 4, whereas the mortals can go for their 5 of 6.





This of course makes that many of the better players will consider this hole unfair, which is fine with me, and maybe even what I tried to achieve. Maybe something similar to Royal Hague hole 6.

[Frank Pont]

Here are some more detailed pictures of the 10th green from different angles.













I have found that anything more than a 6-7 iron does not hold on this green, so have been experimenting with the best ways of getting a par on this hole. One of them is to miss the green on purpose long on the right and to go for your uphill up and down from there....

[Mark Pearce]

Frank,

I hit two good shots here and was just short right of the green in two.  A chip and two putts later I had the bogey I could have made slapping it around.  This is far from the most memorable hole on the course but it is one of the strongest.  Unlike 8, there's no short cut for long players.  This hole requires two good shots and then some short game.  It is, however, a really good hole and one I'd love to play again and again.

[Frank Pont]

Frank,

I hit two good shots here and was just short right of the green in two.  A chip and two putts later I had the bogey I could have made slapping it around.  This is far from the most memorable hole on the course but it is one of the strongest.  Unlike 8, there's no short cut for long players.  This hole requires two good shots and then some short game.  It is, however, a really good hole and one I'd love to play again and again.

Mark,

I have found that this hole is particularly popular with the better players, I guess because of the challenge it poses. I guess they go less for visuals.

The mistake I think you made in your play was to leave your second shot short of the green, which left you a very difficult chip over the knob to a downward sloping green. It would have been  better to play your second shot shorter to have a full wedge in (spin) or hit your second shot long right so that you would have an easier uphill chip into the green.

[Mark Pearce]

Frank,

I'm sure you're right.  From the fairway, the front bunker appears to be the worst miss, so the temptation is to miss right.  Short right, however, is a terribly difficult place to get up and down from.  Even with my limited skill in the sand I may have been better off in the bunker than where I was.  A really good green complex that demands thought as well as skill.

[Ulrich Mayring]

What are the various strategies for the average player to make his bogey?

Ulrich

[Frank Pont]

Play it as a three shot par 5 hole (since the average player will get a stroke at this hole).
For this player the second bunker will be more in play, and the short shot into the green is still challenging since the green runs away from you

[Ulrich Mayring]

Yes, that is what I meant by making bogey (make a 5). What are the various strategies for that? Do I take on the bunker and if yes, what do I gain?

Ulrich

[Frank Pont]

Yes, that is what I meant by making bogey (make a 5). What are the various strategies for that? Do I take on the bunker and if yes, what do I gain?

Ulrich

Ulrich,

there are many ways of playing the hole for players who cannot reach the green in 2 shots, such as:

1. Stay left with the first and second shots to avoid the fairway bunkers, then hit your third shot to the right side of the green thereby avoiding the greenside bunker, and then either chip put or two put for bogey.

2. Play your teeshot left, hit your second shot before/next/over the second fairway bunker and from there the player has an easier third shot into the green avoiding the greenside bunker

3. Play the second shot as close to the green as possible, but leave yourself a full wedgeshot in so that you maximise the amount of spin to stop the ball.

[Frank Pont]

Just saw the first 3d sketches of the new clubhouse of Swinkelsche

http://www.golfbaandeswinkelsche.nl/IManager/Download/564/29523/5778/407183/NL/5778_407183_WIPX_Impressie_clubhuis.pdf

[Ulrich Mayring]

Hi Frank,

I was referring to average hitters (i. e. I guess about 90% of the players of that hole). They would hit their driver a maximum of 200 meters. According to the sketch there appear to be no strategies involved for the tee shot, because it will always stay short of the first bunker. As far as I can tell it doesn't make a difference whether you're left or right as long as you hit the fairway.

For the second shot the average hitters will max out at about 150 meters, so they could just clear the second bunker after a good drive, but have no chance of reaching the greenside bunker.

So in my eyes there are two different strategies after a good drive: hit fairway wood over the second bunker to about 50 meters and wedge it on. Or hit a mid iron to stay short of the second bunker and a short iron to the green (about 100 meters). And after a bad drive it basically narrows down to the "iron strategy".

Now, there's nothing wrong with such a hole, but it is the only strategy that any architect ever seems to implement for par 4.5 holes. It's always the same choice: hit your fairway wood / hybrid for the second shot or lay up with an iron and face a longer third. I would like to see more variation, for example a speed slot that will make an average drive long enough to go for the green in two. Or greenside approach ledges that will funnel a rolling ball towards the hole, but where you have to be in close range to use them (which would also afford the average hitter the possibility to use them with his fourth shot and still make bogey). If you have spots around the green, where an up&down is easy, then that will create additional strategies for the long game, because in essence you have an additional shot to get to the green.

Ulrich

[John Mayhugh]

Interesting looking clubhouse plans. 

I'll get hole 11 posted soon as I've been looking forward to discussing it.  I tried to do post yesterday, but the GCA site wasn't cooperating. 

[Frank Pont]

Ulrich,

you are right that there is little strategy on the first shot, but there is an advantage to being left on the fairway, because it makes aiming the second shot right and past the second bunker easier.

I like your idea of a ridge running into the green. A 4.5 hole that has that is the first hole at De Pan, where you can run both long and medium length shots in via this ridge that comes into the green from the left.

The 10th green has only one safe spot to miss, namely long right. Left front is a bunker, right front leaves a difficult chip (the one Mark had), left of the green is OB, and behind is a deep grassy hollow.

[David Kelly]

Just saw the first 3d sketches of the new clubhouse of Swinkelsche

http://www.golfbaandeswinkelsche.nl/IManager/Download/564/29523/5778/407183/NL/5778_407183_WIPX_Impressie_clubhuis.pdf

Looks like it will get a lot of natural light and it can definitely use all it can get.

Looking forward to #11.  It was one of the most unique short par 4s I have played.

[Frank Pont]

David,

to tease you here is a detail of hole 11

[John Mayhugh]

Hole 11     Par 4, 300/317
Weirdest hole on the course, it is 135 yards wide at its widest. Play it any way you want to, its short, its driveable.














This is a weird hole, which I mean in a good way.  Like some of the ones that precede it, there's no clear way to play it.  The water is easily ignored (a very short carry), but the sand is not.  It dominates your view from the tee, and it seems like there is nowhere to land the ball.  I don't carry it far enough to reliably go for the green, but doing that is very hard to resist.  If you want to play really save, you hit a mid-iron up the right side and have a wedge or so in from a good angle to the shallow but wide green.  The hole tempts you to do otherwise.

[Adam Lawrence]

One thing I really want to know about this hole: will it be any less visually confusing when the course is more mature (ie, the grasses etc have defined the hole more). Or is it so wide and complex that it'll always be extremely confusing?!

[Joe Perches]

Hole 11     Par 4, 300/317
Weirdest hole on the course, it is 135 yards wide at its widest. Play it any way you want to, its short, its driveable.

This is a weird hole, which I mean in a good way.  Like some of the ones that precede it, there's no clear way to play it.  The water is easily ignored (a very short carry), but the sand is not.  It dominates your view from the tee, and it seems like there is nowhere to land the ball.  I don't carry it far enough to reliably go for the green, but doing that is very hard to resist.  If you want to play really save, you hit a mid-iron up the right side and have a wedge or so in from a good angle to the shallow but wide green.  The hole tempts you to do otherwise.

From just the pictures and never having played it (yet), it reminds me a bit of Rustic Canyon's 3rd hole.
It doesn't seem to have much of a preferred side for approach though.
I don't really see much of an advantage playing to the seemingly more difficult landing area on the left side.

Was there a minimum amounts of turf requirement?

Does anyone else expect the left side to be reworked or let go fallow?

[David Kelly]

I only have one play on this hole and I semi-laid up right, about 1 inch from going in the bunker.  That left me about 60 yards to the flag.  I think the play is to either try to drive the green if your length and the wind allows it or lay up to the 50m mark between the middle  waste area and the right side bunker.

I don't know if there is enough room to lay up on the left side.  The hole diagram and the look from the tee made it look like there isn't that much room available.

[Frank Pont]

The 11th hole was probably the hole with which I took the biggest risk in trying something I wasn't sure was going to work. I had a piece of ground to get from A to B that was as wide as it was long. My original design, was a dogleg left around a big lake because at that point the water authorities wanted much more water on the site. When that demand dropped I had a lot more land to play with and started thinking about a short version of the famous MacKenzie hole that would have many different playing lines, but would in certain conditions also be driveable.



(click on the picture to see the full resolution picture (13 MB!))

The biggest issue with designing such a hole is that the different playing lines each have to have merit and attractiveness or they will not be used. Couple that with the fact that this hole really got built in the field by Conor Walsh (shaping almost took him 10 days!), and that meant that there was a lot of iteration and "dirt golf" while we were building.



The basic playing lines are:

- Left. The shortest route (is about 20-30 yards shorter than right), but more bunkers defending it in the fairway landing zone and in front of the green. Probably the best route if the pin is in the back low side of the green.







- Right. The most used route, because although it is longer it looks more inviting and wider, mostly because I have added quite some fairway to the right of the optimal line. Also the approach to the green seems more open from the right, but the green does deflect balls slightly more to the right









- Straight. Maybe the least risky way is to play two straight shots, say an iron 7 followed by a wedge. That way you take all risk of the fairway bunkers out of play and still have a comfortable shot into the green, especially if the flag is front right. But I still have to see anybody play the hole that way....

- Drive the green. When the wind is right it is very possible to try to drive the green. The risks are that you aren't long enough and end up in the soft sand of the Sahara, or you are too long and hook it the creek comes into play...




I would say based on current play the percentages are:

Right      50%
Left        30%
Straight   5%
Drive      15%

The feedback I got back sofar is that people love playing the hole, especially after repeated play, and do experiment with different lines, so the hole is not a failure.

Could it be improved? Probably yes. I have been thinking that I might want to put one more bunker defending the right front side of the green, to make the right side less attractive. I have also considered making a sliver of fairway through the Sahara to stimulate the Straight option. On the other hand as they say "If it ain't broke don't fix it"

[Frank Pont]

The green of hole 11 was mostly done by Conor Walsh with some input from my side in that we discussed how we wanted the green to play from different angles.

The next two pictures nicely show how the green deflects shots to the right from the right side fairway, and also the difficulty of getting a ball to a pin the in the back corner
 




The last picture shows the green from behind and answers why the approach from the left fairway might be the best angle for certain back pin positions.

[Frank Pont]

One thing I really want to know about this hole: will it be any less visually confusing when the course is more mature (ie, the grasses etc have defined the hole more). Or is it so wide and complex that it'll always be extremely confusing?!

Adam,

My guess: it will always be extremely confusing.  (it's even hard to capture the hole on a picture.....)

Now if that is true the next question is: does that make the hole better or worse, or doesn't it matter?

[Frank Pont]

From just the pictures and never having played it (yet), it reminds me a bit of Rustic Canyon's 3rd hole.
It doesn't seem to have much of a preferred side for approach though.
I don't really see much of an advantage playing to the seemingly more difficult landing area on the left side.

Was there a minimum amounts of turf requirement?

Does anyone else expect the left side to be reworked or let go fallow?

Joe,

never played Rustic, my partner Patrice has twice, and he speaks very highly of it, maybe his favourite course in Cal.

The right side of hole 11 does play harder than you think. A lot of people end up taking the corner a bit too tight and end up in the edge of the Sahara, leaving them with a harder shot into the green than when they would have been in a bunker on the left. (the Sahara sand is quite soft).

No min turf requirements, I just wanted to confuse the player with infinite amounts of fairway to play to...

As I said earlier, I think the left side is fine, if anything the green defence on the right might get improved with an extra bunker someday if needed.

[Mark Pearce]

This hole was confusing as hell off the tee.  Much of the fairway is hidden and it's difficult to see an obvious tee shot.  This was a hole where the plans Frank had posted before BUDA proved very useful.  I played right and think I would do every time.  I had a lob wedge to the pin.  What hasn't been mentioned is how extreme this green is.  Leaving the ball short to a back pin leaves what will be, when the greens get up to speed, a terrifying putt.  I'm not sure that being long is a much better option.  This green requires great distance control which is very fair, given that most will be approaching with a wedge or less.