Golfbaan de Swinkelsche - post Buda photos and discussion

[David Kelly]

Could it be improved? Probably yes. I have been thinking that I might want to put one more bunker defending the right front side of the green, to make the right side less attractive. I have also considered making a sliver of fairway through the Sahara to stimulate the Straight option. On the other hand as they say "If it ain't broke don't fix it"

As Voltaire may or may not have said, "Great is the enemy of good."  I think the hole is fine the way it is.  Adding another bunker might risk making a successful layup the result of randomness rather than accuracy off the tee.

[Joe Perches]

Could it be improved? Probably yes. I have been thinking that I might want to put one more bunker defending the right front side of the green, to make the right side less attractive. I have also considered making a sliver of fairway through the Sahara to stimulate the Straight option. On the other hand as they say "If it ain't broke don't fix it"

As Voltaire may or may not have said, "Great is the enemy of good."  I think the hole is fine the way it is.  Adding another bunker might risk making a successful layup the result of randomness rather than accuracy off the tee.

I think it's an pretty good hole too.
Pondering what to do on the first few plays is always fun.

I wouldn't put another bunker right, but maybe adding a somewhat difficult bunker in the back center elbow/swale of the green could help deter attempting to drive the green a bit more.

[Adam Lawrence]

It might just be me, but I've found that when I stand on the tee of a potentially drivable par four, my thought process tends to be 'Is there any good reason not to hit driver?', and I mostly conclude that the answer is no. I don't approach such holes with an open mind asking myself what the best option is, but start with a preconception that it'll be driver unless it seems clearly a dumb option.

After only one play, I think I would probably hit driver on 11 in all circumstances except a strong headwind. It might not necessarily be the best course, but I think I'd struggle to talk myself out of it.

[David Davis]

I agree that this hole was confusing from the tee on the first go. I had the advantage of having Frank there commenting of course and telling me the options. It's nice to hear them, even though my ability doesn't always allow me to listen. I think he said,"Just hit it on the green!" I pulled my drive about 5 meters left of the green and ended up just past pin high. With any other pin position this wouldn't of been that bad however the pin was back left I think which left me a really tough flop shot over the bunker which was mostly blind if I'm not mistaken. I walked off with par and disappointment in what could of been.

If my memory serves me well I think right is the miss here.

This was not one of my favorite holes on the course and I agree with John's assessment from the tee. Had Frank not been standing there I don't think I would of known what to do but I would of ended up going for the flag for sure so not much change in that strategy.

[Frank Pont]

There are two things I really like in all your posts on hole 11.

One is that the hole manages to confuse the hell out of you visually. So there is hope even in an age of detailed strokesavers, laser yardage finders etc to still seed uncertainty and confusion in a players mind as an architect  

Two is that although it clearly is not the way to score best statistically most of you would still hit driver any day of the week playing this hole (including me). Just tells you what an irrational bunch of macho's we are...... (we should all be studying Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow)

[John Mayhugh]

Hole 12     Par 3, 146/157 yards
Third par 3, again cut our of the forest, slightly uphill, very large green with ridge running through it







Like the 9th, this green is also sited in the trees.  It's the shortest of the par 3s, with lots of interesting hole locations.  Hopefully Frank will post a few more pictures, as the grow-in has really transformed the look of the hole.


This photo gives you some idea of the contours of the green.

[Mark Pearce]

Another strong par 3.  This wouldn't have felt out of place in Surrey.  The green surface is visible over the fronting bunkers.  I wonder if Frank gave any thought to raising the lip of the bunkers so as to obscure the left side of the green?

[Frank Pont]

A hole where the pin position makes all the difference. In essence the further left, the harder the hole.



The whole left side before the bunkers was seeded with heather brash and seed. It is developing incredibly quickly, expect it to be pure heather in 2 years!



In answer to Mark's question, I did not think of raising the lip of the bunkers. Interestingly, with the rough edges of the top of the bunker grown one does not see the left side of the green anymore. So it has done the trick itself.....





A very big green, sloping towards the player on the right, but rather flat on the left, and with a ridge running in the middle through it from front to back.









Its a green where its very easy to hit it in regulation but walk off with a bogey....

Over time I expect that we will remove all the trees behind the green (we left them for now to give the green more of a sheltered feel). This will make the distance judgement harder and will give a nice glance over to the heather area around the tees of hole 13 when standing on the green.

[Frank Pont]

I made a Sketchup 3d model of the bunkering of this hole which I used to give Conor Walsh a good idea of what I was looking for in terms of the look and feel of the bunkers.









I liked the way this method worked, even though Conor ended up building 3 instead of the 4 bunkers I had drawn....

[John Mayhugh]

Thanks for the comments on 12, Frank.  I think that the trees on the sides would look a bit odd if you removed the trees behind the green but not the corridor leading to it.



Hole 13     Par 4, 366/383 yards
A medium length par 4, with a green on a raised plateau. Very wide fairway again. Hard to keep the ball on the green.







Another uncomfortable tee shot, despite the width.  You cannot see the water interrupting the fairway from the tee, but the yardage guide shows you it might be reached with a strong tee shot.  There's a somewhat better angle to the green from the right side, but the bunkers interfere.  The elevated green is very tough to hit and hold.  Hopefully Frank will post some photos of it - I did a bad job of photo taking that day.

[Adam Lawrence]

I think this green might be a little too elevated, though I do take Frank's point that it's easier to hit from the right side. Even from there, though, the slope in front of the putting surface is sufficiently steep that it's a difficult approach.

The hole reminded me a little bit of Mike Nuzzo's sixth at Wolf Point, in that the ideal tee shot involves challenging a large bunker complex on the right -- apparently longer -- side of the fairway, in order to open up a flatter route to the green. Like that hole, it's extremely tough.

[Thomas Dai]

Hole-13, kinda reminds me of a much shorter version of the 17th at Carnoustie, which is a damn fine hole in itself.

Very much enjoying this thread to date and looking forward to seeing the rest of the holes in detail. Many thanks to all who've posted plans and photos and the 3D computer models.

All the best.

[Mark Pearce]

Played with a following breeze, this green wasn't held by any of our group.  A short iron or even wedge in, you need to carry it on to the putting surface and the combination of a firm green and that breeze made holding the green beyond my skills.  This might well be easier played into a slight breeze, I think it would probably be easier to hit and hold with an 8 iron into a breeze than with a wedge downwind.

That said, the idea of a green that's tricky to hit with a wedge isn't one I have a problem with and I thought this was a really good hole.  Played again with that following wind I might lay up shorter and see if a short/mid-iron bumped into the slope at the front of the green might not be a way to hold the green.  I suspect that I could spend some time happily hitting shots at that green from the fairway.

[David Kelly]

Two is that although it clearly is not the way to score best statistically most of you would still hit driver any day of the week playing this hole (including me). Just tells you what an irrational bunch of macho's we are...... (we should all be studying Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow)

It is also a reflection of the fact that some of us are more accurate with our drivers than with our 4-irons.  And that isn't so much a compliment on my driving as it is an indictment on my iron play.

[Frank Pont]

The wind you guys had is indeed a-typical, normally there is a SW wind, which is blows against the player from a diagonal left.
It is essential in stopping the ball on the green when you are left on the fairway. In general you want to place your tee shot as close to the bunkers as possible, or if you can try to hit over the bunkers (I have yet to see anybody do that, including the web.com pro I played with).

Ironically the hole is a pretty easy bogey if you play your second shot short right of the green and go for your chip-put-put from there.....

Inspiration for the green complex came from a visit some 15 years ago to Lawsonia Links in Wisconsin, on a golf road trip after my 10 year reunion at Chicago. I did not make pics during that trip, but remember all these raise angular shaped greens....
Again having seen some of Rainor's work on my trip to the Midwest, I would call this a classic US style inspired golf hole.

[Frank Pont]

Some more pics of this hole





As was stated this hole again has very wide fairways, almost 70 yards. Still the best position to be in is as right as possible.




This shows the ideal position to hit into the green from the right side.







Three close up pictures of the green from different angles, showing the difficulty of getting the ball to stay on it, but also that the green is more receptive for shots from the right hand side

[John Mayhugh]

Hole 14,  par 5  513/549
Long real 3 shot par 5. Shared fairway with hole 15. Wild green











Frank posted some later photos of this hole but try as I might to quote that location and include those pictures, the GCA site keeps giving me a verification error.  

As you can see, from the yardage guide, the entire left side of the hole is OOB.  The natural inclination is to play away from the fence, bringing the fairway bunkers into play.  The hole isn't especially long, so you could play short of the bunker and eliminate that risk, but I suspect few of us will.

The contours of the green and hole locations will influence the best side of the fairway to approach from.

I liked this hole a lot.  

[Joe Perches]

Hole 14,  par 5  513/549
Long real 3 shot par 5. Shared fairway with hole 15. Wild green
As you can see, from the yardage guide, the entire left side of the hole is OOB.  The natural inclination is to play away from the fence, bringing the fairway bunkers into play.

Given the desire to hit away from the OOB, how much in play are the tee boxes for 16 and 15 green from 14 tee?
Are there really 6 different tee box islands or is there more of a single larger continuous rear tee box?

[Frank Pont]

Joe,  

since most players play of the yellow and red tees, the tees of 16 and green of 15 really aren't in play. From white and black they could be more in play although these tend to be lower handicap players, and the fairway width is still 55 m plus! Nevertheless the tees of 16 are protected by a hill from the side of the tees of 14, and we have planted pine trees in front of that hill as extra measure of protection should it be needed.

The sixth tee box is the black tee for hole 11.

[Frank Pont]

The 14th was the second hole after the 9th that we built. As such we were a bit rusty when we were building it, so its interesting to hear that John liked the hole a lot (it is also one of Andrew Hastie's favourites). This was the only narrow spot on the property (its still 120 meters wide at the narrowest point), so for that reason I decided to build a double fairway to overcome that weakness. Funny enough it does lull people into a false sense of security, because the longer you keep playing the hole over the right the harder the shot into the green becomes.

The tee shot is wide enough, although the straight OB line left does play with your mind.



This is where an average first drive would land, which gives you a good sense of the width. A super drive would be left just in front of the bunker, giving the player a chance to go for the green in two.



This is where most of the second shots end up, and it shows that it matters a great deal where the flag is on the green. If its left you are OK, but right you have a hard shot in



The green is very undulating, but feeds balls that come in from the left quite well towards the centre of the green. Shots more from the right have a big chance of ending up in the grassy hollow behind the green

[John Mayhugh]

I do intend to finish the photo tour, but lately every time I've tried to quote from Frank's original photo tour, I get a "system verification failed" error.

[Frank Pont]

Hole 15. A tribute to TOC 17, now with OB on the left. Choice is to go right if you want to avoid trouble, or drive over the water hazard / OB and get the best angle in. Hard green to approach from the right

[Frank Pont]

The 15 is trickier than it seems at first glance. Especially the route from the tee over left is a lot more risky than it seems given the almost always present headwind. Most players opt for the safer right side, the question for most is how far to the right given the double fairway with hole 14.



This is the landing zone a good drive from the average player



The view from the left front side of the green, where many lay up shots end up



View from behind the green, where you can clearly see the green is not very receptive to shots from the right side of the hole

[Mark Pearce]

I recall slapping it round a bit on this hole, so can't comment with any insight on its strategy.  I also remember Conrad managing to snap a second hickory of the round when playing his approach.....

[John Mayhugh]

Thanks for the help, Frank.  Of course, today the quoting function is working.

The 15th offers another tee shot that challenges the mind as well as the swing.  The hole isn't all that long, but taking the safe route to the right will make for a difficult approach over the bunker, especially with firm greens.