What hole(s) that you know of, meet(s) these 11 criteria...

[V. Kmetz]

1. Is more than 25 years old since first played.

2. Is longer than 360 yards but shorter than 450 from its blue (not tips) teeing ground

3. Is neither the 1st or the 18th hole

4. Is found on a course that can reasonably be put in a mythical "Top 1000" in the world. (latitude implied here, stretch this liberally if you are at all close)

5. Is found on a course that has hosted State, Regional, or Elite amateur/professional more than once in the last 25 years.

6. Has the same number and general position (if both altered slightly) of bunkers and the same general position of other hazards and boundaries as its first iteration.

7. If it has trees, it has them on one side only...if it has a boundary fence, one side only.  If it has both, (no matter if they are on the same side) it fails this criteria - exclude it. Exception to "both" or trees on both sides: the fairway is wider than 50 yards and the distance between sentinels is 70 yards.

8. If it has a blind TEE shot, can you at least seen the blind ground earlier in the round or as you approach the tee?  If you cannot, exclude it.  If you can, but the second shot is also blind, or (even) semi-blind, exclude it.

9. Does it include two (2) hazard carries (water, bunker, environ-waste) or have hazards on either side of the driving zone? If so, exclude it.

10. Has six (6) distinct pinnable locations on its green

11. Has (or has had) an exceptional quality of playing turf.

cheers

vk

[Sean_A]

6. Has the same number and general position (if both altered slightly) of bunkers and the same general position of other hazards and boundaries as its first iteration.

What does the above mean?

Ciao

[archie_struthers]

     

[Phil McDade]

Does criteria #9 include bunkers under the definition of hazard?

[V. Kmetz]

S.A.

I was hoping the meanign would be taken as, generally...

"Yeah there used to be two big bunkers over there, that they made into four smaller ones"

or vice-versa.

A non-extant bunker since added is disqualifying
A substantial change or division of an extant bunker(s) is disqualifying
A 20 yard change in a bunker is disqualifying(s)

hope that helps...

cheers

vk

[JMEvensky]

Edit--the greenside bunker was moved/altered too much to fit your criteria.

Man, you're strict.

[V. Kmetz]

phil,

yes, bunkers are hazards.

cheers

vk

[V. Kmetz]

if you've got one or more...(JME, everybody) perhaps give a little picture and/or precis?

cheers

vk

[Rich Goodale]

3,4,11,14,15,17 at Royal Dornoch

[Phil McDade]

Rich:

Gorse and water are hazards, no? Wouldn't that eliminate 17 and 11?

[Sean_A]

I am not sure what it means, but depending on if one considers the Brabazon Trophy and English Am as elite amateur events and Burnham a top 1000 course; I think there are two holes which meet the criteria

#2: about 390 from daily tees played thru a dip off the tee.  For longer hitters two bunkers in a large hollow are further up (never seen anybody drive the ball in either bunker).  Three bunkers protect short and greenside left.  

#18: A 440ish hard legger left between a dune right and hollows left.  A good drive leaves a view of the front to back sloping green between bunkers either side.

Ciao  

[jvisser]

Hi,

Noordwijk #8 and #16 could qualify, although I'm not 100% sure length and all hazards are as they were upon opening
of the course in 1972.

cheers

[Luke Eipper]

17th at Port Fairy Golf Club, Victoria, Australia.

[JESII]

I think 15 at Huntingdon Valley outside of Philadelphia qualifies...what does it mean?

[Rich Goodale]

Rich:

Gorse and water are hazards, no? Wouldn't that eliminate 17 and 11?

Possibly, Phil, but I can't see the "water" issue with 11, as the North Sea hasn't been moved by the club, yet....  As for gorse, I assumed that was a maintenance issue (like expanding or constricting the rough lines).  We have to get a ruling from Mr. Kmetz for that.  For full disclosure, too, there was a mostly irrelevant on 4, 30 years ago 100 yards from the tee in the left rough that has been romved.  I consider that housekeeping rather than significant change.

Rich

[V. Kmetz]

Housekeeping myself:

Gorse would be (in the design of this) a hazard. The housekeeping bunker change RG speaks of, would not fail this criteria.  the Brabazon and English Am are perfect for this criteria.

A (or the) point of this criteria survey:

Reading the Lido thread and the CBM original precis about Lido, he spoke of the Alps at Prestwick being a consensus pick as "Best Two shot hole in the World" at that time.

I wondered what the other contenders were and what possibly was common to them.  And considering I think the 360-450 yard hole is almost "dead" with regards to elite competition, and/or that a creator/financier's desire to have a "championship" course (the kind that make their way into Top 1000s) is going to ensure that holes of this length have either brutality, or penalty, or lost balls, or all three...I wanted to see what holes didn't have any of that and if they provide a lantern of sorts to resurrect good holes of this length, ones that give challenge to good and great players, but are fair and stimulating for the 2-20 HCP.

I also thought of my own praises and critiques of many, many two-shot holes and constructed my own criteria, further thinking:

"I'll bet that what's left after reduction is a pretty damn good, fair and 'sporty' hole of architectural substance."

And there it is.

cheers

vk

[Dan Kelly]

I think Nos. 5 and 10 at Hazeltine fit these criteria.

No. 12 at Minikahda?