Most overlooked golf city?

[BHoover]

The topic speaks for itself. Which city/region is the most overlooked from a GCA perspective? We always seem to hear about NYC, Philly, etc. when it comes to great golf. But which city has the most architecturally significant courses yet is continually overlooked in terms of rankings and notoriety?

Personally, I think it's Cleveland/NE Ohio. Admittedly, I'm biased being from the region. We're used to sports disappointment and heartbreak, but our golf courses deserve more recognition than they get. Obviously we have Canterbury, Kirtland and Country. We also have Brookside (it's close enough to be part of the region), Sharon and Pepper Pike. I think Cleveland's courses are equal to and potentially stronger than those in Columbus (my current home), yet the big 4 in Columbus receive more attention than Cleveland. I struggle to see how anything other than TGC is better than the courses I mentioned above, yet the rankings suggest otherwise.

Apart from the top tier, I think Cleveland has great depth. Mayfield, Congress Lake, Lakewood, Shaker Heights, Sand Ridge, to name a few.

Any thoughts? What are some other overlooked cities? Milwaukee? Cincinnati? Indy?

[David_Tepper]

Pittsburgh?

[BHoover]

Pittsburgh?

I thought about Pittsburgh too. But is it really overlooked? How can it be with Oakmont? But then again, Fox Chapel seems to fly under the radar (despite the recent Sr. PGAs). The Field Club is too. I guess I don't know enough about the Pitt golf scene to speak authoritatively. I played South Hills CC a few years ago and really enjoyed it. But I just don't know enough about the other courses in Pittsburgh to say that it's overlooked.

[JC Jones]

Detroit (homer pick)

Oakland Hills
Franklin Hills
Indianwood (old)
CC of D
Detroit Golf Club
Barton Hills
UofM course (should it ever be restored)

[David Harshbarger]

How about Albany, NY?

Schuyler Meadows & Mohawk both very well regarded Emmet courses.
CC of Troy an excellent Travis course.
Olde Kinderhook an excellent Rees Jones addition.

And further afield,

MacGregor, Saratoga National, & Lake George CC.

If that's not good enough, maybe nominate Albany, NY, for the least overlooked list?

[Mark Bourgeois]

I say Manchester in a walk. Just a tremendous depth and breadth within an hour's drive of the airport. The top tier across several types of courses is about as top as top gets and the second tier tops the first tier of many if not most cities anywhere. And as for overlooked, I think it's safe to say many in the South are not aware of much more than those few that pop up on televisions, and that goes double for those who live even farther away.

[Dan Herrmann]

Toronto, ON

[BHoover]

So I guess we should do an overlooked city in the US and one outside the US? We also need some impartial commentators to weigh in. I'm obviously a Cleveland homer (proudly so).

Mark, I've been to the UK a couple times, although not for golf (unfortunately). My guess is that any place in England outside London gets overlooked. What are the courses in Manchester that deserve more attention?

[Tom_Doak]

Newark, N.J.

[BHoover]

Newark, N.J.

What is in Newark that is worthy of consideration? I'm not being a smart ass; I honestly have no idea.

[BHoover]

Toronto, ON

I think this is in the conversation. Obviously I overlooked Toronto.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Brian:

Well, Alister Mackenzie started his career in that area so there's a raft of his courses, although some like those in Leeds fall outside my arbitrary perimeter of an hour's drive from the Manchester airport (assuming people are coming to visit). That still leaves places like Cavendish and Reddish Vale. Throw in Delemere Forest as another inland worthy that not many people know.

From there we head to the coast, which may offer the richest collection of links courses anywhere in the world. Toss out the three Rota courses and the second tier is outstanding. And then there are a host of Welsh courses with unpronounceable names I know nothing about.

Perhaps Mark Rowlinson or Duncan Cheslett can fill us in.

[Mark Saltzman]

Given the amount of great golf there, there is very little discussion about Boston.

[Jon Wiggett]

I would say Leeds has a shout with the city center courses of Alwoodley, Moortown and Sandmoor as well as Ganton, Fulford and Pannel plus the host of second tier courses about. Having said that for me in the UK it has to be Inverness. With Castle Stuart, Nairn West, Moray, Dornoch all inside an hour and Tain, Fortrose, Boat of Garten, Spey Valley as well as a load of other second tier clubs for head of population it has to be near the top of the list.

Jon

[Garland Bayley]

Newark's got Bayonne and Liberty National.
That's the obvious thing most must know.

[Mac Plumart]

Brian, as we've discussed, I think the turf in Cleveland (or at least at Canterbury) sets the table for high quality golf.  It seems places that have the right stuff in the ground end up with an advantage when it comes to building high quality golf courses.

[Phil McDade]

Any thoughts? What are some other overlooked cities? Milwaukee? Cincinnati? Indy?

Brian:

The dilemma with Milwaukee is whether you include Kohler's courses in the greater Sheboygan area (and you'd probably include Nicklaus' Bull at Pinehurst Farms if you did...). Not really a suburb of Milwaukee, but those courses get a ton of play from the greater Milwaukee area due to easy convenience up I-43.

Otherwise, for Milwaukee, it's Milwaukee CC, Blue Mound, Erin Hills (legitimately within the suburban ring), and then.....Ozaukee for the greens and routing? Not sure what else -- you have to go all the way to Kenosha to get Ross' best work in the state (Kenosha CC), and into Walworth County (convenient via the interstate, but not really suburban) for some other stuff that's good.

I'd say Cleveland gets the edge on depth, particularly if you include Brookside. Kirtland and Milwaukee CC are obviously very similar and probably Alison's best two works stateside. Cleveland really trumps Milwaukee on the muni front.

[Mark Saltzman]

Minneapolis?

[Mark Saltzman]

Detroit (homer pick)

Oakland Hills
Franklin Hills
Indianwood (old)
CC of D
Detroit Golf Club
Barton Hills
UofM course (should it ever be restored)

+
Orchard Lake
Rackham (cool muni)
Grosse Ile
And it's worth mentioning that Oakland Hills and DGC each have two Ross courses!

[Phil McDade]

Minneapolis?

Beat me to the punch -- some real under-the-radar stuff -- I'm sure the GCA gang from the Twin Cities can weight in.

But-- alot of good stuff.

[Sean_A]

I say Manchester in a walk. Just a tremendous depth and breadth within an hour's drive of the airport. The top tier across several types of courses is about as top as top gets and the second tier tops the first tier of many if not most cities anywhere. And as for overlooked, I think it's safe to say many in the South are not aware of much more than those few that pop up on televisions, and that goes double for those who live even farther away.

This is a good shout.  Within 1 hour of the city centre (who spends a golf holiday at the airport - gmafb)

Wallasey
Formby
West Lancs
Cavendish
Reddish Vale
Prestbury
Delamere Forest

Less than 1 hour 10 minutes

Hoylake
Moortown
Alwoodley
Birkdale
S&A

Ciao

[Dan Grossman]

Portland has a lot of good golf.  You have Waverly, Columbia-Edgewater, Portland CC and Eastmoreland on the older side.  Plus, Astoria CC isn't too far away.  Royal Oaks n Vancouver, WA is pretty good.  Plus you have all the newer courses at Pumpkin Ridge, Heron Lakes and The Reserve.

[PCCraig]

Minneapolis?

Beat me to the punch -- some real under-the-radar stuff -- I'm sure the GCA gang from the Twin Cities can weight in.

But-- alot of good stuff.

Ding.  

MSP is easily the most overlooked major metro area for the quality of golf. The areas depth is really solid and no one talks about it.

Great mix between classics and moderns:

White Bear
Minikahda
Interlachen
Hazeltine
Wind song Farm
Spring Hill
3 Raynors-Midland Hills, Somerset, Minnesota Valley
Minneapolis Golf Club
Town & Country
Woodhill
Oak Ridge
Keller
Wayzata
North Oaks
Edina
Etc
Etc

Lots of really neat stuff no one has heard of nor does anyone talk about.

[Phil McDade]

Lots of really neat stuff no one has heard of nor does anyone talk about.

Can we count Duluth as a suburb?

[BHoover]

Given the amount of great golf there, there is very little discussion about Boston.

Seriously? Boston doesn't really strike me as being an under-the-radar golf city.