Chicago vs Philly - Who Reigns Supreme?

[Tim Martin]

You have to remove Long Island from NYC to give Philly and Chicago a chance in the debate...

What are the parameters for NYC? I am assuming Fairfield County CT, Westchester County NY, Essex County NJ, Bergen County NJ?

About 88.9 miles, enough to get Shinnecock and NGLA on the list of NYC courses.
[/quote]

I think using the parameters I put forth which certainly seem to qualify as suburban NYC you move past Chicago.

[Bill Brightly]

Even if you wish to to exclude the Suffolk County courses, you would have to include Nassau County (Bethpage and Garden City) and Union , Essex and Morris counties in NJ (Baltustrol, Plainfield, Somerset Hills) as NYC suburb courses.

[Tim Pitner]

Chicago is a world class city, but Philly isn't?
Ridiculous!
Culturally, Philly is light years ahead of Chicago and don't get me wrong, I love Chicago (my wife's home town).
Liberty Bell, Independence Hall, Ben Franklin's influences, Nations' first hospital, Nations' first medical school, Big 5 basketball, Barnes Foundation, Museum of Art, Rodin Museum, Phila. Orchestra, Phila. Ballet, Curtis Institute, etc., etc.
Food, I'd give Chicago a slight edge, maybe.  Vetri, Zahav, the Fountain, Alma de Cuba, Osteria, etc. are all world-class.
Chicago's bigger and taller, but that's about it.  I'll take the 17th and 18th century examples of architecture in Philly vs. the post-fire stuff in Chicago.
Lake Michigan is nice, but the Jersey shore isn't far.
As for golf, Philly is #2, only behind NYC/LI.
I've only played Medinah #3, both courses at Olympia Fields and Flossmoor, but have an invite to CGC and am very excited about playing there.
Jim Sullivan's Philly list looks good to me.
Medinah #3 wouldn't make the top 10 in Philly!

+1

And with Yuengling Philly has better beer too!

If your flagship is Yuengling, then you're sunk.  You're leaning heavily on nostalgia if you think Yuengling is anything more than a mediocre beer that tastes good ice cold on a summer day.  

[JSlonis]

Chicago is a world class city, but Philly isn't?
Ridiculous!
Culturally, Philly is light years ahead of Chicago and don't get me wrong, I love Chicago (my wife's home town).
Liberty Bell, Independence Hall, Ben Franklin's influences, Nations' first hospital, Nations' first medical school, Big 5 basketball, Barnes Foundation, Museum of Art, Rodin Museum, Phila. Orchestra, Phila. Ballet, Curtis Institute, etc., etc.
Food, I'd give Chicago a slight edge, maybe.  Vetri, Zahav, the Fountain, Alma de Cuba, Osteria, etc. are all world-class.
Chicago's bigger and taller, but that's about it.  I'll take the 17th and 18th century examples of architecture in Philly vs. the post-fire stuff in Chicago.
Lake Michigan is nice, but the Jersey shore isn't far.
As for golf, Philly is #2, only behind NYC/LI.
I've only played Medinah #3, both courses at Olympia Fields and Flossmoor, but have an invite to CGC and am very excited about playing there.
Jim Sullivan's Philly list looks good to me.
Medinah #3 wouldn't make the top 10 in Philly!

+1

And with Yuengling Philly has better beer too!

If your flagship is Yuengling, then you're sunk.  You're leaning heavily on nostalgia if you think Yuengling is anything more than a mediocre beer that tastes good ice cold on a summer day.  

Yeungling might be well known, but I wouldn't call it a flagship beer. Philadelphia, Yards & Dock Street, just to name a few breweries, make some much better beers.

[Bill Seitz]

I was reminded yet again yesterday -- visiting the Chicago 'burbs -- what a crappy beer town Chicago is....

You're on some serious medication if you believe this to be the case.  Or you simply spend time with people who have no idea of the quality of breweries we have in Chicago.  And I'm not talking about your standard Goose Island labels, which are mediocre at best.

As for Chicago v. Wisconsin, I still don't think it's particularly close.  Wisconsin has an advantage in that its best beers can be found all over the state, whereas you'll have a hard time finding Revolution, Half Acre, and Pipeworks too far outside of the city.  But after New Glarus, it's a pretty big drop to Central Waters, who do some good things, but let's just say I've never had to dump three four packs of any Chicago beer I've bought due to poor quality control.  At least the Central Waters folks have been nice about it.  

[Howard Riefs]

Chicago is a world class city, but Philly isn't?
Ridiculous!
Culturally, Philly is light years ahead of Chicago and don't get me wrong, I love Chicago (my wife's home town).
Liberty Bell, Independence Hall, Ben Franklin's influences, Nations' first hospital, Nations' first medical school, Big 5 basketball, Barnes Foundation, Museum of Art, Rodin Museum, Phila. Orchestra, Phila. Ballet, Curtis Institute, etc., etc.
Food, I'd give Chicago a slight edge, maybe.  Vetri, Zahav, the Fountain, Alma de Cuba, Osteria, etc. are all world-class.
Chicago's bigger and taller, but that's about it.  I'll take the 17th and 18th century examples of architecture in Philly vs. the post-fire stuff in Chicago.
Lake Michigan is nice, but the Jersey shore isn't far.
As for golf, Philly is #2, only behind NYC/LI.
I've only played Medinah #3, both courses at Olympia Fields and Flossmoor, but have an invite to CGC and am very excited about playing there.
Jim Sullivan's Philly list looks good to me.
Medinah #3 wouldn't make the top 10 in Philly!

With these arguments that Philly tops Chicago as a cultural destination by "light years," your invite to Chicago Golf should be immediately revoked. You have the steps to an art museum, historical influence on the country's founding and the cheesesteak sandwich.

[Phil McDade]

I was reminded yet again yesterday -- visiting the Chicago 'burbs -- what a crappy beer town Chicago is....

You're on some serious medication if you believe this to be the case.  Or you simply spend time with people who have no idea of the quality of breweries we have in Chicago.  And I'm not talking about your standard Goose Island labels, which are mediocre at best.

As for Chicago v. Wisconsin, I still don't think it's particularly close.  Wisconsin has an advantage in that its best beers can be found all over the state, whereas you'll have a hard time finding Revolution, Half Acre, and Pipeworks too far outside of the city.  But after New Glarus, it's a pretty big drop to Central Waters, who do some good things, but let's just say I've never had to dump three four packs of any Chicago beer I've bought due to poor quality control.  At least the Central Waters folks have been nice about it.  

Bill: that's my issue with Chicago and beer -- you really have to know where to go to seek out decent beers in Chicago, and decent beers are routinely found at any number of places in Wisconsin. I've had recent meals at thee distinct, low-brow establishments -- a burger joint near Camp Randall Stadium, a supper club in the suburbs of Madison, and one of the deep dish venerables in suburban Chicago. I had great beer selections at two of the places -- not just New Glarus, but Lake Louie, Ale Asylum, Capital's better offerings, Milwaukee's Lakefront (under-rated), O'so up near Point, even Sand Creek and Central Waters. At the third place, I settled for a Leinie's Oktoberfest -- easily the best choice on hand. Want to guess where that was?

[John McCarthy]

I just want to point out that the Italian Beef is superior in every way to the cheesesteak.  eom.

[Sven Nilsen]

Its tough to compare the two areas from an architectural standpoint.  In Chicago you have MacDonald, Raynor, Colt, Allison, Ross, Langford & Moreau, Willie Park, Watson, Tillie, Bendelow, Tweedie, O'Neil, Leslie, Macomber, Dearie, Roseman, Diddel, Maddox, Foulis, Collis and even some Flynn.  Philly has many of the same names as well as quite a few other major players that did some of their best work (if not their only work) in the area.  

Both cities prospered during the Industrial age, resulting in the expansion of their suburbs and the eventual upswing in the number of golf courses built.  In turn, both cities suffered tremendously from the 50's through the 80's as the plants, mills and centers of industry died out, with Chicago having rebounded a bit quicker into a "newer" city.  Both cities have a tremendous amount of history, with Philly having held on to its revolutionary roots and Chicago highlighting the ideas of progress and innovation.  

There is no better city in the country during the summer than Chicago.  While Philly, NYC, DC and Boston empty out on the weekends, Chicago draws people in.  The locals don't flood out of town for the Shore, as its a beach town, a sports town, a center of culture, a bar town and a golf mecca all wrapped into one.  I lived in Philly for a number of years during the 90's, and even Manayunk felt dead on a summer weekend.

I will give the nod to the cheesesteak over any of Chicago's signature food items.  And there is no greater expert on this forum on the state of the US brewery market than Bill Seitz. 

[Jud_T]

Beyond GCA, Philly is to New York as Milwaukee is to Chicago.  As far as architecture, food, museums, theater etc., etc...  Philly isn't even in the same discussion as Chicago.  Philly cheese steak?  please....

[Sven Nilsen]

Beyond GCA, Philly is to New York as Milwaukee is to Chicago.  As far as architecture, food, museums, theater etc., etc...  Philly isn't even in the same discussion as Chicago.  Philly cheese steak?  please....

Jud:

Do yourself a favor and don't fall for JC's subtle bait.  He's the older brother trying to get the two younger kids to fight over who's stronger.

Its the lucky man who truly gets to choose where they live.  If you're not in that category, celebrate what you have.

Sven

[JC Jones]

Actually, Sven, it was in response to the Links Magazine thread where Chicago was ranked #2 and the Philly boys weren't happy about it.  I thought it'd be fun to have a discussion of the courses of the two cities without having to talk about New York.

If it is a big brother, little brother thing, I agree, Michigan is superior to both Chicago and Philly in golf AND beer  

[Bill Seitz]

Bill: that's my issue with Chicago and beer -- you really have to know where to go to seek out decent beers in Chicago, and decent beers are routinely found at any number of places in Wisconsin. I've had recent meals at thee distinct, low-brow establishments -- a burger joint near Camp Randall Stadium, a supper club in the suburbs of Madison, and one of the deep dish venerables in suburban Chicago. I had great beer selections at two of the places -- not just New Glarus, but Lake Louie, Ale Asylum, Capital's better offerings, Milwaukee's Lakefront (under-rated), O'so up near Point, even Sand Creek and Central Waters. At the third place, I settled for a Leinie's Oktoberfest -- easily the best choice on hand. Want to guess where that was?

But again, you're comparing the suburbs of Chicago to Wisconsin.  I'll grant, you need to know where to go to seek out decent beers in Naperville (hint: Solemn Oath).  You do not need to know where to go to seek out decent beers in Chicago.  You're going to find them just about anywhere.  And if there are establishments that don't have a decent selection of beers in Chicago, there's probably already a bunch of other reasons you don't want to be there.  And of course, you can actually get many of the great beers brewed in Chicago at package stores in the suburbs.  You just may not find them on tap.  

[JC Jones]

Bill: that's my issue with Chicago and beer -- you really have to know where to go to seek out decent beers in Chicago, and decent beers are routinely found at any number of places in Wisconsin. I've had recent meals at thee distinct, low-brow establishments -- a burger joint near Camp Randall Stadium, a supper club in the suburbs of Madison, and one of the deep dish venerables in suburban Chicago. I had great beer selections at two of the places -- not just New Glarus, but Lake Louie, Ale Asylum, Capital's better offerings, Milwaukee's Lakefront (under-rated), O'so up near Point, even Sand Creek and Central Waters. At the third place, I settled for a Leinie's Oktoberfest -- easily the best choice on hand. Want to guess where that was?

But again, you're comparing the suburbs of Chicago to Wisconsin.  I'll grant, you need to know where to go to seek out decent beers in Naperville (hint: Solemn Oath).  You do not need to know where to go to seek out decent beers in Chicago.  You're going to find them just about anywhere.  And if there are establishments that don't have a decent selection of beers in Chicago, there's probably already a bunch of other reasons you don't want to be there.  And of course, you can actually get many of the great beers brewed in Chicago at package stores in the suburbs.  You just may not find them on tap.  

The Binnies in Skokie had a great selection.  Not just of Chicago beers but also Lost Abbey, Prarie (big surprise to see), Port Brewing and others. 

The only beer out of Wisconsin that is noteworthy is New Glarus and that is really for their Sour/Fruit beers.  That being said New Glarus is better than anything in Chicago.  Again, its a depth issue and Chicago has more though not even close to the same league as Michigan or North Carolina.

[Sean_A]

Okay

I will admit that the National Park section of Philly is very cool and made for a great back-up plan in case of rain.  Boy did it rain!  The rain wasn't good for golf, but the Park was empty and made for a very enjoyable day.  I will also admit that the Chestnut Hill set-up is perfect for a golf trip. On the other hand, Chicago has the blues bars...Seriously, either choice works very well and if I actually had a choice in real life (which I never imagine happening) the factor of Merion and PV access would weigh heavily in the decision-making process.  I probably wouldn't go to Philly without access to at least one of Merion (would love to play Merion again) or PV, but I would go to Chicago without access to Chicago Golf.  What can I say, I am from the Midwest!

BTW - I couldn't give a shit about any perceived difference in the quality of beer between Philly, Chicago, China or Madagascar. 

Ciao

[Phil McDade]

Bill: that's my issue with Chicago and beer -- you really have to know where to go to seek out decent beers in Chicago, and decent beers are routinely found at any number of places in Wisconsin. I've had recent meals at thee distinct, low-brow establishments -- a burger joint near Camp Randall Stadium, a supper club in the suburbs of Madison, and one of the deep dish venerables in suburban Chicago. I had great beer selections at two of the places -- not just New Glarus, but Lake Louie, Ale Asylum, Capital's better offerings, Milwaukee's Lakefront (under-rated), O'so up near Point, even Sand Creek and Central Waters. At the third place, I settled for a Leinie's Oktoberfest -- easily the best choice on hand. Want to guess where that was?

But again, you're comparing the suburbs of Chicago to Wisconsin.  I'll grant, you need to know where to go to seek out decent beers in Naperville (hint: Solemn Oath).  You do not need to know where to go to seek out decent beers in Chicago.  You're going to find them just about anywhere.  And if there are establishments that don't have a decent selection of beers in Chicago, there's probably already a bunch of other reasons you don't want to be there.  And of course, you can actually get many of the great beers brewed in Chicago at package stores in the suburbs.  You just may not find them on tap.  

Bill:

The Chicago metro area has close to 10 million people; greater Madison (not Wisconsin; greater Madison -- but heck, Wisconsin has about 5 million people) has about a half-million. You're more likely to find good beer in greater Madison than greater Chicago -- I've been dining in both places off and on for the past two decades. Of the last 5 dinners I've had in greater Chicago (city and burbs), I have yet to come across a decent (depth, quality) beer list. It's becoming increasingly difficult to find a place in greater Madison with a lousy beer list.

You can guy decent beer at nearly any store these days; I want it with my food.

[Bill Seitz]

Of the last 5 dinners I've had in greater Chicago (city and burbs), I have yet to come across a decent (depth, quality) beer list. It's becoming increasingly difficult to find a place in greater Madison with a lousy beer list.

You can guy decent beer at nearly any store these days; I want it with my food.

Then you aren't looking very hard.  I could probably rattle off ten restaurants within a 10 minute walk of my West Lakeview apartment that offer both good food and a fairly extensive beer list.  I could probably do the same for my girlfriend's Wicker Park neighborhood.  It's becoming increasingly difficult on the north side to find a bar or restaurant that DOESN'T have an excellent beer selection*.  And that's before even considering places like Hopleaf, Farmhouse, the Publican, Longman and Eagle, and other great restaurants peppered throughout the city.  I'd suggest spending less time in the south suburbs, or going to Flossmoor Station next time you find yourself down there.

*A deep selection is overrated in my opinion anyway, but different strokes....  It's not like I'm going to be drinking 15 beers at one establishment, so what do I care if they have 200 taps?  Give me a couple quality offerings across a handful of styles, and I'm fine.  

[Sven Nilsen]

JC -

Are you asking us to compare cities, or states?  If the latter, I'll take California for all of the fore-mentioned categories, and we haven't even touched on weather yet.

But there I go, following that white rabbit.  Its a sad life when one overlooks the good enough next door for the mythical best lingering just out of reach.  This conversation, as well as the other thread touching on the ranking dominance of MacRaynors reminds me that we spend too much time investigating and trusting what others like, and not enough time figuring it out for ourselves.  I keep reading about the "need" that many around here have for seeing various highly ranked courses, and I wonder where that need really comes from.

Sven

[Jud_T]

Phil,

I suggest you IM one of us next time you're in town instead of just hitting the local TGI Fridays.  You could literally spend a year eating and drinking your way through Chicago and never hit the same place twice.

[Dan Moore]

Phil,

You are relying on too small a sample size for your opinions on Chicago beer and shouldn't even cite a suburban pizza joint.  I like Lou Malnatti's pizza but they have an awful beer selection.  

Chicago not only has some great local breweries, Half Acre and Revolution are favs, but a large number of places have huge craft beer lists -Fountainhead and Map Room are favs.  

As far as Philly vs Chicago golf I was hpoing to start my comparison this Fall (my daughter recently moved to Manayunk) but an errant pitch last Sunday hit my ulna instead of my bat and I'm on the 60 day DL with an elbow to wrist cast-not my fav.  

So instead I visited Old Elm yesterday to do some golf course photography and note their ongoing work to bring back many of the original bunkers.  Apparently Dave Zinkand (formerly of Coore and Crenshaw) is now doing work there to bring back the Colt "torn bunker" style detailed in the  notes he left for Ross to build the course.  This is the 100 year anniversary of the design and build of the course which opened for play in 1914.  They have added back some pretty dramatic bunkers over the last 5 years.  Also noticed they are doing a home/home match with Swinley Forest for 1st time this year.  Swinley this yeat, Old Elm next year.  A truly one of a kind place.  And its byob.  

[Jud_T]

Sven,

Here's the problem.  Golf is best when played on firm, interesting ground.  Chicago, for the most part, has neither.  Played Ravisloe with a couple of buddies yesterday.  Aside from the fact that 8 of the last 11 holes are par 4's between 390 and 410, it's a fun track with some interesting Ross greens.  The wet conditions put a damper on the whole affair.  I'm not nearly the belt-notching snob I used to be but I'm pickier in terms of where/when to play.  Philly at least has some more interesting topography and a couple courses that are actually on sand.

[Josh Tarble]

I can't argue on the strengths and weaknesses of their golf courses, but in my eyes Chicago wins because they have more byob restaurants than anywhere else I've visited.  Selection doesn't matter when you can bring your own.

[Peter Pallotta]

JC - I can't opine in any way (meaningful or not), but will ask rhetorically: How many pairs of pants can a man wear at any one time? How many houses does he need to call home? How many different drivers is he likely to use during a round of golf? How many times a day does he need to sit down to a great dinner?  My point: why should 'depth of field' be an important point of comparison? If I want to play, say, Shoreacres more than Pine Valley; or Aronimink more than Chicago Golf, doesn't that, FOR ME, answer the question (Chicago vs Philly - Who Reigns Supreme) in the most significant/meaningful way possible? If I had one beautiful, custom made, perfectly fitting tan linen suit from Armani in my closet, my second or third best suit would be nothing more than (semi) practical (semi) necessities.

Crabapplely yours,

Peter

[Joe Bausch]

I can't argue on the strengths and weaknesses of their golf courses, but in my eyes Chicago wins because they have more byob restaurants than anywhere else I've visited.  Selection doesn't matter when you can bring your own.

Have you visited Philly (and PA in general)?  Well, the state controlled Liquor Control Board ("LCB") tightly controls liquor.  The end result is an unbelievable amount of BYO's in Philly and the 'burbs.

[Andrew Buck]

Sven,

Here's the problem.  Golf is best when played on firm, interesting ground.  Chicago, for the most part, has neither.  Played Ravisloe with a couple of buddies yesterday.  Aside from the fact that 8 of the last 11 holes are par 4's between 390 and 410, it's a fun track with some interesting Ross greens.  The wet conditions put a damper on the whole affair.  I'm not nearly the belt-notching snob I used to be but I'm pickier in terms of where/when to play.  Philly at least has some more interesting topography and a couple courses that are actually on sand.

What is interesting to me is the course that is rarely disputed as the best in Chicago, CGC, is really on flat farmland.  A few scattered natural trees, almost no elevation change or bluffs, no natural sandy areas.

As for Ravisloe, not only are there that many par 4's to close, they all run North/South.  To be fair, I don't think 18 is that long, but the bunkers essentially force a layup that makes it play that long.  Still, I've always enjoyed that course for some reason.  

The unfortunate thing is every 9 hole course in the state that has added a second 9 in the last 35 years determined they needed to plant trees every 6 paces of the property.