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Mac Plumart

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Bringing something new to the table
« on: August 31, 2013, 09:27:39 PM »
Ever since the release of the 2013 Golf Magazine Top 100 lists, I've been feeling disappointed.  I think this disappointment centers around their inclusion of 10 Raynor/MacDonald template courses in their US Top 100 list.  To me, that seems like it has to be too much.  Too much repetition.  Too much sameness.    Of course, I haven't played all of these template designs, but I've actually played a good amount of them.  And it strikes me as, first and foremost, wrong to have all those courses in the Top 100.  But it also strikes me as lazy and lacking imagination and courage to go with the same thing again and again and again (10 times over).

But regardless, the thing I would like to talk about are unique designs.  Designs that actually added something new to the world of architecture.

If The Old Course was the first course, that certainly added something to the world of architecture...a golf course.

CBM/Raynor's work at NGLA did as well.  The first template course, which was used to show the world what architecture was and build an "ideal" course.

But what other courses added something new to the world of architecture?  What were they?  What did they add?  They can be wonderfully great or noble disasters.  But what are (or were) the unique golf courses of the world?

« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 09:48:17 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2013, 10:32:35 PM »
Quote
But what other courses added something new to the world of architecture?  What were they?  What did they add?  They can be wonderfully great or noble disasters.  But what are (or were) the unique golf courses of the world?

Good question, Mac.  I'd have to think that many of the ground breaking, new GCA concepts and design-build innovation must be in GB&I.  The first efforts off the linksland and onto heathland and inland parklands would be significant.  Since one of our earliest, CB, went to study England and Scotland to pick up on design concepts and imported them to U.S., we would have to consider those already established courses there.  

Of the new innovations here, would it be fair to say that some of the new approaches to GC development was to combine golf with U.S. resort and destination venues along the R.R. and trail south for the winter for the northerners?  The courses where the architect applied new turf and agronomy knowledge and studies (like Merion by Wilson) would have to be seminal to innovation.  Ross and his perennial work at Pinehurst would also be in those categories or resorts-agronomy-design in particular pine barrens, also like Pine Valley.  Innovation or development by industrialist or wealthy like Fownes at Oakmont, Merion and PV Crump, led to many other courses developed by private wealthy individual efforts leading to the Keiser, Kohler, Trump profile of developers of modern day. Golf innovation or breakthroughs seem often to come from wealthy individual's efforts who become passionate about the game and its fields of play.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2013, 10:43:10 PM »
Mac,

The early desert courses would have to be on the list. Red Lawarence' Desert Forest would have to be included, I think.

Slightly different, Shadow Creek would be included as the mode, of golf-course-as-putty model.
Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2013, 11:01:46 PM »
Ever since the release of the 2013 Golf Magazine Top 100 lists, I've been feeling disappointed.  I think this disappointment centers around their inclusion of 10 Raynor/MacDonald template courses in their US Top 100 list.  To me, that seems like it has to be too much.  Too much repetition.  Too much sameness.    Of course, I haven't played all of these template designs, but I've actually played a good amount of them.  And it strikes me as, first and foremost, wrong to have all those courses in the Top 100.  But it also strikes me as lazy and lacking imagination and courage to go with the same thing again and again and again (10 times over).


The flawed premise underlying your argument is that magazine lists measure something called "greatness." When you realize they measure the preferences of the people making the lists, the appearance of 10 MacRaynor courses no longer confounds expectations but confirms them. If you like MacRaynor you like MacRaynor.

To the second part of your post: Prestwick for starters.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2013, 11:11:35 PM »
I would think that Pete Dye has to enter the discussion at some point, as well as RTJ.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2013, 11:31:02 PM »
Add to that Sand Hills.

And to go out on a flier here, though I've never played it, Kinloch's many holes with dual fairways must be distinct.

Does Cypress Point qualify with the use of the bay as a hazard in the line of play?

The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Peter Pallotta

Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2013, 12:38:31 AM »
Ah, Mac, yes indeed -- where's the magic, you ask, and the moments and places of transcendence? I don't know; you'd know better than I. But to experience the transcendent I suppose we have to actually transcend something -- and I think that maybe transcending our feverish little intellects and our second hand mountains of cliche-riddled consensus opinions and the world's endless ego-and-money-driven and herd-influenced fascination with rankings and top-ten lists might go a long way in clearing the fog from our brains and the mists from our eyes and in loosening the steel chains around our hearts so that we might become again at least capable of finding and recognizing that magic and at least open to experiencing those moments of transcendence. "If the doors of perception were cleansed...", well, you know the rest. This site has done much good in highlighting and discussing and promoting the world's great golf courses, but the gain has come with a price, i.e. more than ever, our experiences are pre-judged, ready made, and objectified, while the capacity for true subjective and singular experience -- that place where the transcendent lives and breaths -- gets ever more stifled. To put it crudely, being here is like a guy doing nothing but watching porn movies all the time, until he can't get excited anymore unless someone tells him to get excited, and until he's almost forgotten that there are real, live, unique, wonderfully flawed and crazy and challenging and lovely woman in the world to meet and to get to know and fall in love with and to actually experience in the fullest sense of the word. And if he could remember that fact -- if he could clear the fog from his porn-addled brain and the mist from his eyes -- he would at least be preparing himself for the possibility that one of these days he'd meet someone that would knock his socks off.
 
But maybe I've misunderstood your question/point....

Peter  
« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 12:44:23 AM by PPallotta »

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2013, 03:56:11 AM »
Muirfield's routing.  In the age of out and back, it went against the grain.
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2013, 04:27:05 AM »
Emirates GC, Dubai. First grass golf course in the Middle East. Now there are numerous grass courses in the region, and quite a bit of £$£$ has flowed into the pockets of the international golf business ever since it was opened in 1988. Game changer.
All the best.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2013, 04:28:34 AM »
Well Mac here are a few ideas and these are based on firsts with some pedigree.  I don't have a clue if some garbage course got there first.

New Zealand - first heathland cut through trees.

Woking - first attempt at transplanting strategic links concepts and TOC like greens to heathland - the course still stands out today.

St Georges Hill - first housing estate course - and likely still the best housing estate course.

The above centre around heathland golf, but somehow there must be mention of heathland golf being the ground zero of realizing the importance of turf for inland golf.  So really, a meld of maintenance and design for inland golf was originated somewhere in the heathlands.  I think this is possibly the most important aspect of the heathland movement.  

I don't believe TOC was the first course, but I think it was the first to demonstrate consistent strategic principles throughout even if it may have been partly due to happy accident.

It would be great to discover which was the first course to incorporate a diagonal water carry that wasn't a burn or ditch.

Ciao  
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2013, 05:12:24 AM »
Mac, which CBM and/or Raynor courses would you knock out of the top 100? 

I think Mike Strantz designed some unique courses.   

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2013, 05:26:37 AM »
I think that if we decided to get tough on the top 100 with similar designs from archies, would Ross or anybody else possible suffer?

Part of the problem with comparing the ODGs with today's archies is back in the day folks didn't travel for golf nearly as much so creating a legacy through design variety couldn't have been a high priority.  Plus, lists didn't really have near the same influence as today.  I definitely believe there are some high profile archies today who deliberately try to mix things up a bit because of lists and rankings.  

I often hear that C&C often crank out the same sort of thing.  If true, do C&C take a hit on lists?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2013, 07:11:36 AM »
Mac,

I'm always a little uneasy when anyone wants to take credit (or give credit) to some design as being original, but I agree totally that the love for the same old templates has gotten out of control.  Give me something else ... anything at all.

To be fair, there is a lot of other stuff out there, it's just not getting the votes.  It's just that the Golf Magazine panel is no longer diverse enough.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2013, 07:44:05 AM »
... To be fair, there is a lot of other stuff out there, it's just not getting the votes.  It's just that the Golf Magazine panel is no longer diverse enough.
Tom, this is the crux of the issue.  Who decides on who decides?  I started a thread a while back about who is qualified to be a rater, and quickly concluded that I was not.  Not from an ability problem but from a too limited golfing life experience.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2013, 09:41:07 AM »
To those who’ve mentioned rating and raters, this thread is not concerned with ratings.  This thread is about unique golf courses that bring something new to the table.  I don’t care if a course is good enough to be Top 100 or Top 200 or #1 or whatever.  I would like to focus on unique courses, attempts to break molds, noble attempts, etc.

So far we’ve mentioned…

If The Old Course was the first course, that certainly added something to the world of architecture...a golf course.

CBM/Raynor's work at NGLA did as well.  The first template course, which was used to show the world what architecture was and build an "ideal" course.

The courses where the architect applied new turf and agronomy knowledge and studies (like Merion by Wilson) would have to be seminal to innovation.  

Of the new innovations here, would it be fair to say that some of the new approaches to GC development was to combine golf with U.S. resort and destination venues along the R.R. and trail south for the winter for the northerners?   Ross and his perennial work at Pinehurst would also be in those categories or resorts-agronomy-design in particular pine barrens, also like Pine Valley.  

Innovation or development by industrialist or wealthy like Fownes at Oakmont, Merion and PV Crump, led to many other courses developed by private wealthy individual efforts leading to the Keiser, Kohler, Trump profile of developers of modern day. Golf innovation or breakthroughs seem often to come from wealthy individual's efforts who become passionate about the game and its fields of play.

The early desert courses would have to be on the list. Red Lawarence' Desert Forest would have to be included, I think.

Slightly different, Shadow Creek would be included as the mode, of golf-course-as-putty model.

Prestwick

 Sand Hills.

And to go out on a flier here, though I've never played it, Kinloch's many holes with dual fairways must be distinct.

Muirfield's routing.

Emirates GC, Dubai. First grass golf course in the Middle East.

New Zealand - first heathland cut through trees.

Woking - first attempt at transplanting strategic links concepts and TOC like greens to heathland - the course still stands out today.

St Georges Hill - first housing estate course - and likely still the best housing estate course.

The above centre around heathland golf, but somehow there must be mention of heathland golf being the ground zero of realizing the importance of turf for inland golf.  So really, a meld of maintenance and design for inland golf was originated somewhere in the heathlands.  I think this is possibly the most important aspect of the heathland movement.  

I don't believe TOC was the first course, but I think it was the first to demonstrate consistent strategic principles throughout even if it may have been partly due to happy accident.

I think Mike Strantz designed some unique courses.



Some questions were added:

Does Cypress Point qualify with the use of the bay as a hazard in the line of play?

It would be great to discover which was the first course to incorporate a diagonal water carry that wasn't a burn or ditch.



And Peter P. offered a great point:

"If the doors of perception were cleansed...", well, you know the rest. This site has done much good in highlighting and discussing and promoting the world's great golf courses, but the gain has come with a price, i.e. more than ever, our experiences are pre-judged, ready made, and objectified, while the capacity for true subjective and singular experience -- that place where the transcendent lives and breaths -- gets ever more stifled
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2013, 10:40:31 AM »
Mac

I suggest that most advances were by increments rather than single leaps forward. Simon mentions the routing of Muirfield but in truth Muirfield was like many other inland courses of the time that didn't have an out and back layout and that was probably due largely to the shape of the site. As other recent threads on Muirfield have shown, the fabled loop within a loop evolved over time and was the product of many hands rather than inspired thinking of a single individual.

Likewise Merion. Not sure what it was the first to have. Plenty of courses were sown at least a decade before and I'm sure they would have had some form of soil analysis however rundimentary that might seem today or indeed ten years later when Wilson was doing his thing.

The one that does stand out for me is New Zealand as Sean mentions. From what I understand that was a course that involved the wholesale removal of trees to create hole corridors. Not sure if I've heard anything like it at the time.

Niall

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2013, 10:57:39 AM »
Identifying the first course to be routed through thick forest requiring major logging and grubbing seems to be an innovation.  What would be the first course routed and constructed that was understood from its conception to be unwalkable, and used patches of ground far separated through tough terrain in order to combine a 'collection of holes'.  I don't know which one that might be... anybody?

Edit:  Would RTJSr or Stanley Thompson have been first archies to design with understanding the course may be unwalkable, with their association with large WPA projects.  It would have to be after the introduction to the motorized cart, wouldn't it? 
« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 11:02:33 AM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2013, 11:10:55 AM »
I would like to focus on unique courses, attempts to break molds, noble attempts, etc.

Wolf Creek

Jim Nelson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2013, 11:13:04 AM »
Must be something about being human that we love lists.  Many on this site curse the lists, then promptly start setting them up, albeit with the understanding that we know best, being GCAers and all.  So now we are developing a list of courses that we most innovative in their time.  Why?  Well, we have nothing else to do early/late in the day over the Labor Day weekend and why not bash the other lists that seem to revere a couple of long dead guys a bit too much.  

Let's do a list with names of courses.  I'll nominate a course that uses no letters.  2010.  

And Tom, really, I'm not sure how large yours are, but it would take a pretty good pair to make the following comment

"I'm always a little uneasy when anyone wants to take credit (or give credit) to some design as being original, but I agree totally that the love for the same old templates has gotten out of control.  Give me something else ... anything at all."  :o

Weren't you the "architect" of a certain highly ranked (oh those pesky lists) course on the Oregon coast that was a copy of their copies?  

I'm guessing that the courses CBM and Raynor designed which are on lists are there because people love to play them.  I had a blast playing NGLA and Yale and I would put them on any list, templates and all.  I look forward to playing more of them.  You all can play Shadow Creek, innovation and all.    
I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world.  This makes it hard to plan the day.  E. B. White

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2013, 11:18:17 AM »
Jim...

If you don't like this thread, go to another one. Don't ruin this one. No one is forcing you to spend time on this one.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2013, 11:27:08 AM »
Some par 3s might be unique...

The movable par 3 green at Couer d'Alene ( sorry for the spelling)

Blind par 3s...out of favor now I think. Cader Hole?

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2013, 11:50:27 AM »
Mike Hurdzan's course, Widow's Walk, was the first course built specifically as an 'environmental demonstration' course.  I've heard that they had to make some compromises from the original intent of totally environmental considerations regarding maintenance and cultural practices.  But, the 'environmental demonstration' concept in course design was innovation.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2013, 01:12:43 PM »
What was the first course built on a landfill/garbage dump? That was an innovative land reclamation project.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2013, 01:44:31 PM »
Steve...

Good point.  I have that information somewhere.  I'll dig it up later tonight.

This brings up Streamsong in my mind.  This is a reclaimation project, right?  Is it unique?  Has it been done before?  Will it set a trend?


Also, we should not some projects and ideas that we'd like to see implemented in the future.  I will note on this front, that I'm reading Clifford Roberts book on Augusta National.  It is fascinating to be reading this, and have read the Pine Valley history book, and see how they dealt with building a club in The Great Depression.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2013, 02:29:32 PM »
Steve, Mac

     Merrick Road Park Golf Course (William Mitchell 1966) was built over a former garbage dump in 1966. I'm sure this couldn't be the first. But it would be interesting to know where in the US is/was the first course built in such a manner.

                    Gene
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010