[Ally Mcintosh]

The green in the overall Biarritz concept is just a subset of Double Plateau.

That's it.

Or it is at least as far as I'm concerned.

No Ally, if they are calling their Biarritz par 3 "Double Plateau" they are simply mistaken. These are two distinct green complexes. And for a such a famous MacRaynor course, they really should correct this misnomer.

Bill,

Perhaps in MacRaynor parlance they are mistaken.

But in common sense concepts of green designs, the Biarritz is one type of many double plateau styles of green... i.e. it uses two plateaux (divided by a low point) as a feature...

[Patrick_Mucci]

The green in the overall Biarritz concept is just a subset of Double Plateau.

That's it.

Or it is at least as far as I'm concerned.

No Ally, if they are calling their Biarritz par 3 "Double Plateau" they are simply mistaken. These are two distinct green complexes. And for a such a famous MacRaynor course, they really should correct this misnomer.

Bill,

Perhaps in MacRaynor parlance they are mistaken.

But in common sense concepts of green designs, the Biarritz is one type of many double plateau styles of green... i.e. it uses two plateaux (divided by a low point) as a feature...

Ally, I couldn't disagree more.

The concepts are so radically different, in design and play that one could never mistake a Biarritz for a double plateau.

The Biarritz, almost universally, has a trough/swale running at a 90 degree angle from the tee.
It's far more linear in nature, whereas, a double plateau does not possess the geometric consistancy found in Biarritz's.

And, if one accepts Bill Brightly's comments, a Biarritz would contain just one putting surface plateau, not two.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Patrick,

When I first posted, I only semi-realised that MacRaynor named a hole "double plateau" therefore giving their own concept.... I don't disagree that the concepts that they named differ (Double Plateau and Biarritz). Or that the Biarritz may only have been intended to be the back portion (ala discussions at Yale)...

But in the bigger world of green designs outside of what someone names a hole, there are plenty of ways of encompassing double plateaux in to a green of which a Biarritz style is just one...

Guess I was being a little facetious given that I knew the intent of the question...

[Bill Brightly]

The green in the overall Biarritz concept is just a subset of Double Plateau.

That's it.

Or it is at least as far as I'm concerned.

No Ally, if they are calling their Biarritz par 3 "Double Plateau" they are simply mistaken. These are two distinct green complexes. And for a such a famous MacRaynor course, they really should correct this misnomer.

Bill,

Perhaps in MacRaynor parlance they are mistaken.

But in common sense concepts of green designs, the Biarritz is one type of many double plateau styles of green... i.e. it uses two plateaux (divided by a low point) as a feature...

I guess I can't argue with that if you use double plateau (meaning two plateaus) in small letters, but the original question is in caps, and it comes from a pro at a Raynor course... Just like a Short is a short par 3, but not all short par 3's are Shorts.

I have enough trouble defending the Biarritz hole as a viable concept with today's ball and clubs without the hole being wrongly named!

[Mark Molyneux]

Geez! I've missed you people!! I guess I got busy having grandkids.

Let me take a shot at clarifying the distinctions, as I see them, between a Biarritz and a Double Plateau. Most of this discussion is limited to Biarritz greens versus Double Plateau greens. I live near Philadelphia and I get to play a hole with a couple Double Plateau greens just about weekly at Lederach (#4 #11). They're both par 4s playing into green complexes that are oriented differently... the fourth like a Biarritz with the swale bisecting the green, perpendicular to the line of flight on approach and the eleventh with the swale bisecting the green on an angle such that the back tier is like that twisted piece of taffy... maybe 35 degrees left of the front plateau. In my mind, these both qualify as Double plateau greens though I think it only proper to respect the original question as it had to do with double plateau and Biarritz holes which are invariably par threes.

I missed getting to Yale this summer (again) so I've yet to see what folks generally call "the best" but I've played a few Biarritz holes in my time. There's a weak sister (It's sort of like this.) at McCullough's which is a poor man's architectural tour of some of the best that England, Ireland, Scotland, and France (in this instance) had to offer. Another, better example of a Biarritz design exists at Forsgate's Banks course #17. My sense is that Biarritz holes have at least three defining characteristics: the significant swale oriented perpendicular to the ball's line of flight, the chasm (or significant hazard symbolizing the chasm that the Dunns built over at La Phare), and the length both of hole (typically in the 190 to 235 yard range) and the green itself (typically in the 50 to 80 yard range). I suspect that a lot of superintendents (Guys... correct me if I'm wrong on this!) didn't like maintaining the front tier as green when the pin was back 95% of the time so front tiers became fairway and swales became false fronts.

So far as I'm concerned, there are lots of double plateau greens / holes. There are triple plateau greens as well, some of which come with windmills and clown's noses. I think most people reference greens that have multiple pateaus (I also like the spelling plateaux.) without much regard for the conformation or strategy of the hole itself. My inclination is to respect that classic design from the original Biarritz forward included "the Biarritz" as a type of hole that was repeatedly replicated but greens with two plateau areas are just complicated green complexes... not really a type of hole like the Eden, Redan, or Biarritz.

I do respect that Brian Silva in a great article for Links Magazine referred to the St. Louis CC hole as a "Biarritz". Everyone has an opinion but I think "challenging putting surfaces" and "classic golf holes" are two different things. JMO. 

[Bill_McBride]

Actually, Southern Dunes (the Steve Smyers course south of Orlando) has a Biarritz-style green on a nice par 5, I think the 17th hole.  What are some other examples of Biarritz greens on par 4 and par 5 holes?

[Mark Molyneux]

Geez! I've missed you people!! I guess I got busy having grandkids.

Let me take a shot at clarifying the distinctions, as I see them, between a Biarritz and a Double Plateau. Most of this discussion is limited to Biarritz greens versus Double Plateau greens. I live near Philadelphia and I get to play a hole with a couple Double Plateau greens just about weekly at Lederach (#4 #11). They're both par 4s playing into green complexes that are oriented differently... the fourth like a Biarritz with the swale bisecting the green, perpendicular to the line of flight on approach and the eleventh with the swale bisecting the green on an angle such that the back tier is like that twisted piece of taffy... maybe 35 degrees left of the front plateau. In my mind, these both qualify as Double plateau greens though I think it only proper to respect the original question as it had to do with double plateau and Biarritz holes which are invariably par threes.

I missed getting to Yale this summer (again) so I've yet to see what folks generally call "the best" but I've played a few Biarritz holes in my time. There's a weak sister (It's sort of like this.) at McCullough's which is a poor man's architectural tour of some of the best that England, Ireland, Scotland, and France (in this instance) had to offer. Another, better example of a Biarritz design exists at Forsgate's Banks course #17. My sense is that Biarritz holes have at least three defining characteristics: the significant swale oriented perpendicular to the ball's line of flight, the chasm (or significant hazard symbolizing the chasm that the Dunns built over at La Phare), and the length both of hole (typically in the 190 to 235 yard range) and the green itself (typically in the 50 to 80 yard range). I suspect that a lot of superintendents (Guys... correct me if I'm wrong on this!) didn't like maintaining the front tier as green when the pin was back 95% of the time so front tiers became fairway and swales became false fronts.

So far as I'm concerned, there are lots of double plateau greens / holes. There are triple plateau greens as well, some of which come with windmills and clown's noses. I think most people reference greens that have multiple pateaus (I also like the spelling plateaux.) without much regard for the conformation or strategy of the hole itself. My inclination is to respect that classic design from the original Biarritz forward included "the Biarritz" as a type of hole that was repeatedly replicated but greens with two plateau areas are just complicated green complexes... not really a type of hole like the Eden, Redan, or Biarritz.

I do respect that Brian Silva in a great article for Links Magazine referred to the St. Louis CC hole as a "Biarritz". Everyone has an opinion but I think "challenging putting surfaces" and "classic golf holes" are two different things. JMO. 

[Mark Molyneux]

While I'm thinking about it... can someone help me out with a question that I had about the "Volcano hole" that I played at Bedford Springs this summer? For those who might not be familiar with Bedford Springs, the Volcano is an absolute bear, playing 223 yards to a green that's elevated by about 60 feet above the tee. This is not simply a tee shot to an elevated green but a tee shot with an effective carry from the tips of about 250 yards to a green sitting atop a conical projection that rejects anything short, left, right or long. I believe I read that the Volcano, which is the fourth at Bedford was part of the Donald Ross contribution at Bedford and he was responsible for three or four others around the country. Is a Volcano hole the same as an Alps hole?

[Phil McDade]

Mark:

The best descriptions of the MacRaynor templates that I've seen comes in the GCA interview of George Bahto, here:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/george-bahto/

I don't know anyone (living) who has put more time into studying the templates than George, so to me his word is pretty definitive.

I've seen quite a few volcano holes, and while I don't think they are a MacRaynor template, I do think it's something that's been built by several architects. There's an old nine-hole course here in Wisconsin called Eagle Springs that has one of the best versions I've seen (click on this link; it's the first photo shown of the course:http://www.eaglespringsgolfresort.com/aboutus/coursephotos/

I think Langford's 7th hole at Lawsonia is maybe a volcano hole under a loose interpretation, although I also think it has attributes of a MacRaynor short.

I see a Volcano hole as a longish par 3 with severe trouble all around if the green is missed; an Alps to me is best represented by the two originals (U.K. and U.S.) -- Prestwick and NGLA -- a blind shot over a large hill to a green unseen. But see the Bahto interview for further definitions and interpretations of an Alps.

[Jim Nugent]

No Ally, if they are calling their Biarritz par 3 "Double Plateau" they are simply mistaken. These are two distinct green complexes. And for a such a famous MacRaynor course, they really should correct this misnomer.

Again this raises the question: why would they name the hole Double Plateau if there were no plateaus on the green, i.e. the green did not contain the swale from the start?  

[Philip Caccamise]

The ultimate Volcano hole...


And wouldn't the 8th and 16th, respectively, at Camargo be the classic examples of a Biarritz vs. a Double Plateau?

[Steve Kline]

Camargo's Biarritz is definitely a classic example. However, it's double plateau is a little unique I think. Camargo's has two plateaus of equal height, back left and back right, separated by a trough that runs parallel to the line of play. The front half of the green is all the same basic height. What makes that a little unique is my understanding that many/most double plateau greens the trough, or area separating the plateaus, is pinnable. I don't think it is at Camargo. Also, I think there is more separation and slightly different angles of play to the plateaus at most double plateau greens. At Camargo the line of play doesn't matter due to the plateaus (although it does because of the large bunker/knob that can make a shot to the right half of the green a little blind if the tee shot is right).

[Bill Brightly]

No Ally, if they are calling their Biarritz par 3 "Double Plateau" they are simply mistaken. These are two distinct green complexes. And for a such a famous MacRaynor course, they really should correct this misnomer.

Again this raises the question: why would they name the hole Double Plateau if there were no plateaus on the green, i.e. the green did not contain the swale from the start?  

It raises these questions: Why would St. Louis CC mistakenly call a Biarritz a Double Plateau? How long have they been doing it? And how quickly will they correct the name?

[Buck Wolter]

No Ally, if they are calling their Biarritz par 3 "Double Plateau" they are simply mistaken. These are two distinct green complexes. And for a such a famous MacRaynor course, they really should correct this misnomer.

Again this raises the question: why would they name the hole Double Plateau if there were no plateaus on the green, i.e. the green did not contain the swale from the start?  

It raises these questions: Why would St. Louis CC mistakenly call a Biarritz a Double Plateau? How long have they been doing it? And how quickly will they correct the name?

Bill- Each hole at St Louis is named -- the second is named 'Double Plateau' -- my guess is they will never rename it. If you go back and read my post to me it looks like it was called Double Plateau from the beginning and if MacDonald was concerned he would have made that very clear 100 years ago -- from what I have read he was not shy about expressing his opinion.

[Jim Nugent]

Maintaining the front section as putting surface is a modern trend which I like because it creates a fast and firm landing area so those playing a running shot actually can have their ball make it down and up the swale. I think Yale was the first to make this change.

That is the kernel of my idea: that CBM's Biarritz greens did not contain the swale.  SLCC was one of his early courses.  The fact that he (I think) named its second hole "Double Plateau" suggests to me that the green probably contained two plateaus, plus the swale.  That might rule it out as a Biarritz, but still qualify it as a double plateau.  

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pulled out my Evangelist of Golf and looked at the routing map of SLCC -- it is unattributed but due to the fact that Ladue is misspelled Ladae on it makes me think it is a McRaynor drawing and not something created by the club.

Each hole is named on the map --the 2nd Hole is called Double Plateau but with '(Biarritz)' below, #4 is called St Andrews with '(Road)' notated, #7 is Shorty with no notation and #16 is called Narrows but there is a Double Plateau Green written in at the green.

Buck,

I think you have to take a closer look at the routing map of SLCC.
Look at the actual rendering/sketch of the 15th and 2nd greens.
A close examination indicates that the rendering/sketch depicts # 15 green, clearly, as a double plateau and the 2nd green, clearly as a Biarritz green.

The 2nd green was also elevated 20 feet above grade, one of the trademarks of a Biarritz compared to a double plateau where the elevation above grade was minimal, a few feet at most.  The Knoll and Piping Rock's Biarritz's have that same, steep fall off as SLCC.  I don't know of one double plateau situated 20' above grade.

In addition, the yardage, at 233 was typical of Biarritz's whereas double plateaus were rarely, if ever introduced on par 3's, especially long par 3's.

Off the top of my head I can't recall a single double plateau from CBM/SR/CB that existed on a par 3.
Of the ones I can recall, they were all on par 4's

The question I would ask, is, what's the date of the rendering/sketch ?
Was it crafted pre or post-construction ?
If it was pre-construction, that might explain the name, although, the rendering/sketch almost undeniably portrays # 2 as a Biarritz
 
My guess is they haven't changed the hole names in 99 years and probably won't start now.

I would disagree with that as well.
When clubs discover that the original architect is other than they publicized, they usually correct the record.
When clubs discover that their history is in error, they usually correct the record.
Hence, if reasonable evidence is presented, it wouldn't surprise me if reasonable men correct the record.

[Bill Brightly]

No Ally, if they are calling their Biarritz par 3 "Double Plateau" they are simply mistaken. These are two distinct green complexes. And for a such a famous MacRaynor course, they really should correct this misnomer.

Again this raises the question: why would they name the hole Double Plateau if there were no plateaus on the green, i.e. the green did not contain the swale from the start?  

It raises these questions: Why would St. Louis CC mistakenly call a Biarritz a Double Plateau? How long have they been doing it? And how quickly will they correct the name?

Bill- Each hole at St Louis is named -- the second is named 'Double Plateau' -- my guess is they will never rename it. If you go back and read my post to me it looks like it was called Double Plateau from the beginning and if MacDonald was concerned he would have made that very clear 100 years ago -- from what I have read he was not shy about expressing his opinion.

Buck, do you know any members at St. Louis? I would love to have a dialogue with one of their members who truly knows their history. I'll put up my $100 to a dollar that Macdonald did not name it Double Plateau. It is an obvious error that should be corrected.

Calling George Bahto!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bill,
The second at SLCC was named "Double Plateau" on a 'scorecard' of the holes that was printed in a 1921 article about the US Amateur.
Chick Evans gave his account of the hole in a post-tourney follow up:

Hole  two  was  most  l i k e a b l e for me,  t h o u g h  o t h e r s  did not c a r e for it and w e r e  a l w a y s  g l a d to be  o v e r  t h e lake
w h i c h  l i e s  b e t w e e n  the  t e e  a n d hole t h r e e . The d i s t a n c e here was 230 y a r d s , w h i c h  is e x a c t l y  the  
y a r d a ge I like for a drive. W i t h  a  s p o o n  I f o u n d  I c o u l d  s h u t  my  eyes, a l m o s t, a n d  be  p r e t t y  s u r e of  b e i n g on t h e far g r e e n . I say the far green b e c a u s e  the g r e e n  h e r e  is  a double p l a t e a u . For t h e c h a m p i on s h i p  play the c u p was p l a c e d  o n  t h e  g r e e n  f a r t h e s t  f r o m  t he  t e e .

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bill,
The second at SLCC was named "Double Plateau" on a 'scorecard' of the holes that was printed in a 1921 article about the US Amateur.
Chick Evans gave his account of the hole in a post-tourney follow up:

Hole  two  was  most  l i k e a b l e for me,  t h o u g h  o t h e r s  did not c a r e for it and w e r e  a l w a y s  g l a d to be  o v e r  t h e lake
w h i c h  l i e s  b e t w e e n  the  t e e  a n d hole t h r e e . The d i s t a n c e here was 230 y a r d s , w h i c h  is e x a c t l y  the  
y a r d a ge I like for a drive. W i t h  a  s p o o n  I f o u n d  I c o u l d  s h u t  my  eyes, a l m o s t, a n d  be  p r e t t y  s u r e of  b e i n g on t h e far g r e e n . I say the far green b e c a u s e  the g r e e n  h e r e  is  a double p l a t e a u . For t h e c h a m p i on s h i p  play the c u p was p l a c e d  o n  t h e  g r e e n  f a r t h e s t  f r o m  t he  t e e .

p.s it played as a par 4 in 1921, followed by the Eden hole at 185 yards and a par of 3.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Kennedy,

His comments are revealing as he references two, not one green, implying that the first tier was maintained as green as well as the far tier being maintained as green.

I wonder if the swale was maintained as green ?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
I also noticed that, but he did not mention the height of the grass in the swale it. Here's the article:

http://tinyurl.com/laq3uxu

...and another w/the course layout, ca.1921, including a scorecard with the names/yardages of all the holes.

http://tinyurl.com/kpvfhsg

[Buck Wolter]

Pat -
You're right that it is #15 that has the double plateau green not 16 as I misremembered.

My point in all this is it's the name of a hole -- everyone there knows the hole is a Biarritz. Maybe it's the uphill nature of the hole that 'allowed' it to be described as a double plateau -- two separate plateaus would in fact be a double plateau but maybe not a 'Double Plateau'. They could call it Betty and it would still be a Biarritz.

Bill- I know a dude who I think can help to find out how far back this goes -- looks like Jim has already found 'proof' back to 1921.

OT but the first line of the forward in The Evangelist of Golf, 'Some men prefer older women, I prefer older golf courses'. Any guesses without looking?

Buck

[Bill Brightly]

Pat -
You're right that it is #15 that has the double plateau green not 16 as I misremembered.

My point in all this is it's the name of a hole -- everyone there knows the hole is a Biarritz. Maybe it's the uphill nature of the hole that 'allowed' it to be described as a double plateau -- two separate plateaus would in fact be a double plateau but maybe not a 'Double Plateau'. They could call it Betty and it would still be a Biarritz.

Bill- I know a dude who I think can help to find out how far back this goes -- looks like Jim has already found 'proof' back to 1921.

Yes, that was a great find by Jim! It don't thnk it is 100% clear that both plateaus and the swale were maintained as putting surface, but it certainly proves that the hole has been called double plateau for a long time!

OT but the first line of the forward in The Evangelist of Golf, 'Some men prefer older women, I prefer older golf courses'. Any guesses without looking?

Pat Mucci?

Buck

[Bill Shamleffer]

I expect that I may have played and caddied St. Louis CC more than any other person on this site (unless a current or former member of the club or member of the grounds crew is on this site).

Unfortunately I have not seen the course since I left St. Louis in 2001.

I just pulled out a score card from around 1995.  #2 is called Double Plateu while #15 is called Narrows (#16 is Redan).  #2 is 195/222 yards from the back tees.  It is a long narrow green in which the upper front, the middle swale, and upper back each have possible hole locations.  The tee shot is very slightly uphill.  I would say the green is more narrower than the 9th at Yale.  The green is almost rectangular, with the swale being in the very middle of the green.

The 15th does have a small elevated plateu at the back portion of the green.  I would guess this elevated potion might consist of less than 20% of the full green.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I don't thnk it is 100% clear that both plateaus and the swale were maintained as putting surface, but it certainly proves that the hole has been called double plateau for a long time![/color]

I don't know about that Bill, it seems pretty clear that Evans knew what was a green and what was a plateau.  

I say the far green because the green here is a double plateau. For the championship play the cup was placed on the green farthest from the tee .


My favorite Biarritz in its standard configuration.

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