[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Is Billy Bunker a similar product?

Billy Bunker is a similar concept to asphalt. Basically the base of the bunker is lined with stone which is then sprayed with a binding material, creating a drainage bed.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Steve

Is that like the stuff they put down on paths to ease the wear and tear ? If so, what is he using to bind it together, if anything ?

Niall

I think it is exactly the same stuff used on paths, and that's where Murray got the idea. There is a binder, but I guess that's supposed to be a trade secret. I don't know what it's made of.

Blinder have two materials. The bunker material is crumb rubber and looks like asphalt. Their path material is a shredded material which looks like wood chips.

[Tom Kelly]

It isn't a liner as such but has anyone had any experience with 'Envirobunker'?

I believe they have a deal with blinder to offer a hybrid system to solve blinders problems with steeper faces but I am not familiar with the product other than what I have read on the website. Is it just an imitation sod wall?

http://www.envirosports.co.uk/documents/envirobunker.pdf

[Ally Mcintosh]

It isn't a liner as such but has anyone had any experience with 'Envirobunker'?

I believe they have a deal with blinder to offer a hybrid system to solve blinders problems with steeper faces but I am not familiar with the product other than what I have read on the website. Is it just an imitation sod wall?

http://www.envirosports.co.uk/documents/envirobunker.pdf

I was of the belief that it is primarily an imitation sod wall with a partial adhesive quality that will allow sand faces to hold somewhat on shallower walls... Can't imagine it being cost effective for parkland sand faced bunkering?...

But would love to hear from any with experience. I've certainly heard it being mentioned in dispatches a fair amount...

[Lester George]

I have installed both Matrix and Better Billy Bunker on some pretty steep faces (65%+).  At this point, I am convinced that I will probably not put in any more fabric liners.  

My preference is the Better Billy Bunker.  I think gravel is a much more compatible sub-grade than asphalt.  Better Billy Bunker is much easier to install,  much more cost efficient, and more flexible in terms of getting material (different bridgeable gravel) from local areas for installation.  Less time and less money.

Although the Matrix bunker system works, I have concerns about putting asphalt below grade which can be a permit issue in some locals.  

Lester

  

[Thomas Dai]

Out of curiosity, if a sportscreet/betterbillybunker type layer has been successfully installed, but then the members/Committee/etc in their infinite wisdom decide to remove or radically change the bunker, how easy is it to remove the sportscreet/betterbillybunker layer?
All the best.

[Joe Hancock]

Out of curiosity, if a sportscreet/betterbillybunker type layer has been successfully installed, but then the members/Committee/etc in their infinite wisdom decide to remove or radically change the bunker, how easy is it to remove the sportscreet/betterbillybunker layer?
All the best.

There would like be an excavator involved in either operation, so the only question is where to bury, or otherwise dispose of the material.

Joe

[Jeff_Brauer]

You can put me in as a Better Billy Bunker guy.  Not sure about asphalt for reasons Lester suggests.  Not legal to bury asphalt in many areas, so why wouldn't this be a problem?

The only bunker liner I haven't tried but would like to is Bunker Solutions out of Houston, which is basically white Astroturf (or beige, to match your sand).  It is thicker and appears more sturdy than any other fabric which might be the best compromise.  The BBB is good, but the gravel can break in chunks. 

[ward peyronnin]

Frank

Dan Meersman is the super at Philly Cricket, and formerly at Victoria, and a nice approachable guy. He developed a lot of the technical features of this system for PCC so why don't you just pick up the phone and speak with him. I am sure he could answer a lot of your questions

[Dunlop_White]

The Better Billy Bunker system was used on the steep faces at Old Town, and it has worked very well.

[Murray Long]

Frank

Interesting post, when have you had experience of Blinder on any of the constructions or renovations you have carried out? As i have never heard of any rubber coming up through the sand.
On the subject of sand staying on the faces sand will generally stay on the face below its angle of repose and this will varying from sand to sand depending on composition/particle size/shape etc and this range is generally between 35-40 degrees if sand is wet it may go slightly above this.
Blinder was designed while looking at the pit falls of other bunker liners, it is not the cheapest option but does tick a large number of the boxes. Liners are there to achieve consistency and that question could be discussed for a long time. It would certainly cut maintenance costs if we did not spend as much time maintaining bunkers and hunting for the perfect playing conditions, but that is how the game has developed in all areas from turf to sand.
Blinder is designed to bridge and not allow the sand to filter through and block the drainage below and not allow the drainage stone to come up, this is why the particle size of blinder is important. It also allows the water to move through to the drainage effectively, it expands and contracts with changing soil conditions, as it is rubber held together with a strong binding agent if sand levels do get low, which happens it minimizes and chance of damage hands or clubs, this would worry me with a solid asphalt or crete type liner.

[Frank Pont]

Murray,

Good to see you on GolfClubAtlas, welcome!

As you can read from my posts I have no direct experience working with Blinder, that's why I clearly wrote that what I stated was based on what I have heard from course managers and secretaries.

I am sure Blinder is a very good product, otherwise somebody like Tim Lobb, who is probably the architect who's work I respect and like the most in the UK, would not be using it for almost all his bunker restoration/renovation jobs.

The only place where I have seen blinder in an actual bunker was at the green bunker at Berkshire Red hole 18, and I am sorry to say there were quite some loose rubber bits in the sand. Now that could of course be specific to that situation, and I am sure that clubs would not use the system if this sort of problem occurred often.

In any case, overall I would be very willing to try Blinder when a club asked for a liner in their bunkers, with the right type of bunker, soil situation and a good multi year warranty of the company installing it.

[LeeStrutt]

Hi Frank,

I believe Stephen Bryne at The Wisley has installed asphalt bunker liners on at least 9 holes and I think maybe another 9 since. He spent sometime developing the exact speficiations and the methodology of installing the asphalt, so maybe worth contacting him?

The Billy bunker has been installed on the Gleneagles PGA centenary course for about 20 months now to great success, and this is also worthwhile considering the rainfall and the rate of rain we have in Scotland.

I also know that Loch Lommond have trialled both the Billy bunker and Blinder bunker system with great success too.

I think both of these systems work extremly well, however I believe the biggest factor to any bunkering success, is the sand type. As Murray mentioned, sand has a natural repose when wet (the steepest) and allot less when dry and so dictate the angle at which the sand will hold naturally on a face without it slipping down or wash down under heavy rainfall. A sand to hold on faces with + 40 degrees maynot be suitable for the base for drainage and playability and visa versa on playable sands on steep faces. I think a greater understanding on how the sands perform under moisture content and weather condtions will lead to a more sustainable bunker performance and better maintenance regime and help identify a bunker sand based on performance and not just its colour.

Hope this helps

Best regards

Lee.

[Richard Chamberlain]

Wow there certainly are lots of options out there now. Plenty of these new methods working successfully now but the success over the long term will be interesting to see.

Just to add another one in the mix, out here in Australia there is a mob called Kustom Bind that sounds almost identical to the Billy Bunker method.

[Bill_McBride]

I love this thread.   "Angle of Repose" is my favorite American novel, a tale of the American West from an engineer's POV, by master writer Wallace Stegner.   "Angle of Repose" refers to that angle of slope where a material such as sand will stay in plac.

[Murray Long]

Frank

This is a great thread and stimulating some great debate, please speak to Penny at Blinder and she will be more than happy to help you.

Interesting you mention the Berkshire which is as you know only just up the road from me and we have a close working relationship. I have spoken to the course manager and there is absolutely no rubber coming through the sand, so i am not quite sure what you were looking at, maybe some dark organic matter from the edges!

This is also an important point raised earlier in the thread, what would you want coming up in the sand if anything? Gravel or Asphalt would damage mowing equipment, Geo textile to catch the club or bunker rake in. Or rubber, does not damage mowing equipment, does not catch on the rake or rip up and is also used when mixed with soils to relieve compaction.

The point Lee raised about the sand staying on the faces due to particle size and shape is an important one, we tend to flat rake the faces so the ball returns to the base and the faces bake a little and harden when not disturbed so tend to wash less, blinder does perch a little in the base, due to granulate size and design so provides a firmer base with an area of softer sand on top so the club does not disappear but adequate sand levels can be maintained

Murray

[Davis Wildman]

I love this thread.   "Angle of Repose" is my favorite American novel, a tale of the American West from an engineer's POV, by master writer Wallace Stegner.   "Angle of Repose" refers to that angle of slope where a material such as sand will stay in plac.

Here's another for the mix: Capillary Concrete...different installation process...used at Hazeltine and Atlanta Athletic Club, and a few others...from Europe, but there is a US distributor now.

[Matt Bielawa]

I was poking around the internet and came across Capillary Concrete, which seems to be another competing company.  I had no idea this stuff existed, and have no idea whether I've experienced it or not.  Has this become more and more common over the last couple years (the thread already talks of Philly courses who have done it)?  Sounds like you could hypothetically hit right off the of the "concrete" without damaging your club, so that mitigates one of the concerns above.  Can anyone speak to the playability of the bunkers that have this stuff installed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u6vUtcR8p0

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I missed this thead the first time around.
Fascinating stuff, I would never have thought this was a possibilty.
Once again Frank, thanks for bringing to my attention.

[Lester George]

Davis,

Better Billy Bunker was installed at Hazeltine in all bunkers after a side-by-side comparison with Capillary Concrete.

Lester

[Marty Bonnar]

Any ideas on how environmentally friendly or otherwise this solution might be?
F.

[Sean McCue]

Davis,

Better Billy Bunker was installed at Hazeltine in all bunkers after a side-by-side comparison with Capillary Concrete.

Lester

Lester,

We tested both BBB and Capilary Concrete liners and for us it wasn't even close. BBB wins hands down, freeze thaw cracked the CC bunker after one winter. For us the BBB better handles our wildlife issues with Deer and Elk trampling the trough the bunkers in the winter.

[Ian Andrew]

I'm at a loss on why people don't use clay to line bunkers.
The technique can be tricky at first, but the results are great.

Up here we can't use the other methods because of freeze/thaw cycles.
All of the products eventually come up or fracture.

It's a fraction of the cost and just as effective.
Lookout Point had their clay liners installed in 1922, they are still there....

[Jeff_Mingay]

Interesting re the clay liners at Lookout, Ian. Didn't you redo the bunkers there, though? Did you not touch the original 1922 cavities?

I really like sod liners. They've worked out really good (so far) at a number of my projects in the Pacific Northwest - way less money than the synthetic stuff that always seems to cause problems down the road, too.

[Ian Andrew]

Didn't you redo the bunkers there, though? Did you not touch the original 1922 cavities?

Some, yes, but others like the ones on the 1st only had the sand replaced.
The bottoms were pretty much intact because underneath is pit run.

I really like sod liners. They've worked out really good (so far) at a number of my projects in the Pacific Northwest - way less money than the synthetic stuff that always seems to cause problems down the road, too.

It works in the short run, but you only end up with a 1/2" of organic between what's underneath and what's on top.
If you have our freeze/thaw cycle, you will have rocks push through.
If your on the left coast, then that's not really an issue.

I use it in Buffalo because clean clay is hard to come by.

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