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Patrick_Mucci

I don't think I can recall a better combination of
« on: August 29, 2013, 10:18:28 PM »
golf courses comparable to the two at the Monterey Peninsula Country Club.

Now I love Winged Foot, Baltusrol, Olympic, Merion, Oakmont, Montclair and other multi-course clubs, but MPCC is distinctly different.

Each course has it's own personality, so much so that the grasses and playing surfaces are different.
One is Rye, the other bent, with the bent providing tighter lies.

Both courses have wide fairways giving latitude to all level of players.
And, the greens tend to be rather large.
Angles of attack, for a variety of reasons, be it a raised shoulder or deep bunker,are important.

The courses meander from the club house down to the flats on the beach then back up to the club house.
Although the Dunes course takes a more indirect route

Unlike Baltusrol and Winged Foot, there's no similarity in style between the two courses.
They're unique.

The putting surfaces are maintained firm and fast and the aerial and ground game are available, with one preferred over the other on certain holes.

And, the cool wet air and breezes make the courses and shots play longer.

The practice facilities are also exceptional.

When I have more time I'll comment on the uniqueness of the courses.

If I had to choose from all of the clubs that have 27 or more holes, MPCC would be the course for me, it's quite special in every aspect.

AJ_Foote

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't think I can recall a better combination of
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2013, 09:08:54 AM »
Pat,

I don't know MPCC, but I've a feeling you'd really love Barnbougle Dunes /Lost Farm in terms of brilliant but different courses.

Andrew

Mark McKeever

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Re: I don't think I can recall a better combination of
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2013, 10:14:04 AM »
I never knew Oakmont had two courses.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't think I can recall a better combination of
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2013, 10:20:24 AM »
I never knew Oakmont had two courses.

Mark

He's on a roll Mark, let em go!
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: I don't think I can recall a better combination of
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2013, 10:44:18 AM »
Mark & Ed,

Who do you think owns Oakmont East ? ;D

HarryBrinkerhoffDoyleIV_aka_Barry

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Re: I don't think I can recall a better combination of
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2013, 02:21:03 PM »
Pat - do you think you would still have the same opinion if MPCC wasn't next to the ocean?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 04:16:22 PM by Barry Doyle »

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: I don't think I can recall a better combination of
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2013, 03:22:26 PM »
Pat, I agree that MPCC is a great one two punch.  I have been there only twice but love the golf and the ambience of the club.  I also like the push carts.  For me, however, Sunningdale's two courses are my favorite.  While they may seem similar in terrain the courses are very different.  Picking one over the other is like a mother picking a favorite child.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't think I can recall a better combination of
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2013, 03:26:15 PM »
I never knew Oakmont had two courses.

Mark
There is a 7 hole and 11 hole course that are bisected by the turnpike :)

Jason Connor

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Re: I don't think I can recall a better combination of
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2013, 03:51:07 PM »
I never knew Oakmont had two courses.

Mark

Maybe he was referring to Oakmont East, the muni that boarders the third hole.

But nice post, Pat.  I'd particularly love to play the Stranz course out there.
We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: I don't think I can recall a better combination of
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2013, 04:40:30 PM »
Didn't Oakmont purchase that course so they could use it for parking during tournaments?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't think I can recall a better combination of
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2013, 04:56:18 PM »
Pat,

Did you have a chance to play either course before it's restoration?

I did have the opportunity to play the original Shore Course and Mike Stranz did a fantastic job of converting a rather mundane layout into a world class golf course. There were always drainage issues, especially down by 17 Mile Drive. Although the original course had a wonderful set of Poa Annua greens there was liitle to write home about regarding the layout. Mike completely reveresed the routing from a clockwise one, to one going counteclockwise, so the views towards Spyglass Hill and Cypress Point would become the background. Now I know you were completely unimpreesed by those views, as your attention is drawn only to the golf course itself, but if you had allowed yourself to take them in you would have been mighty impressed! The sand capping of the layout is what really makes the difference, I'm sure you noticed that it was much easier to run the ball in on the Shore Course. I also love how he turned a very linear golf course into one that has a very serpentine nature; the holes all tend to bend and twist rather that head straight to the green in a runway fashion.

The Dunes Course also had drainage issues and Rees Jones was asked to improve that in his redesign. Instead of sand capping he chose to rumple the fairways; a cheaper but less effective solution. There is definetly a little Raynor flavour on the Dunes, especially going from the biaritz par 3 6th to the short par 3 11th. I understand the Club is considering another redesign to bring back even more of the Raynor influence. Did you pick up any scuttlebutt on that occurring?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't think I can recall a better combination of
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2013, 09:28:20 AM »
Pat have you played Sunningdale its the UK's best day out?
Cave Nil Vino

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't think I can recall a better combination of
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2013, 10:40:54 AM »
I understand the Club is considering another redesign to bring back even more of the Raynor influence. Did you pick up any scuttlebutt on that occurring?

Boy I hope so!

Pat,
Even though I'm a Bay Area boy I've never made it out to MPCC, hopefully that will change soon.

While the two courses at Winged Foot do share similarities, I found that there was enough variety that would keep me more than happy. In my mind, the West course was the best stroke play test, with the East, and its incredible set of greens, the perfect match play course (which makes it fitting that the East is the course they've used for the US Am). I walked off the property thinking that there is no club I would rather be a member at.

Philly Cricket's courses will be very different once the restoration/renovation on the Wissahickon course is done, and both are wonderful golf courses. I would think that it could give MPCC a run for it's money.

If Barnbougle were a club it has more variety than you would ever need, but since we seem to be talking about private clubs, I won't throw it into the discussion.

But my candidate for the best variety in two courses is Dismal River! To be honest I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up yet.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't think I can recall a better combination of
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2013, 10:41:12 AM »
East and West at Saunton? Too similar?
All the best.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 03:47:40 PM by Thomas Dai »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't think I can recall a better combination of
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2013, 03:41:15 PM »
Pat,

Did you have a chance to play either course before it's restoration?

I did have the opportunity to play the original Shore Course and Mike Stranz did a fantastic job of converting a rather mundane layout into a world class golf course. There were always drainage issues, especially down by 17 Mile Drive. Although the original course had a wonderful set of Poa Annua greens there was liitle to write home about regarding the layout. Mike completely reveresed the routing from a clockwise one, to one going counteclockwise, so the views towards Spyglass Hill and Cypress Point would become the background. Now I know you were completely unimpreesed by those views, as your attention is drawn only to the golf course itself, but if you had allowed yourself to take them in you would have been mighty impressed! The sand capping of the layout is what really makes the difference, I'm sure you noticed that it was much easier to run the ball in on the Shore Course. I also love how he turned a very linear golf course into one that has a very serpentine nature; the holes all tend to bend and twist rather that head straight to the green in a runway fashion.

The Dunes Course also had drainage issues and Rees Jones was asked to improve that in his redesign. Instead of sand capping he chose to rumple the fairways; a cheaper but less effective solution. There is definetly a little Raynor flavour on the Dunes, especially going from the biaritz par 3 6th to the short par 3 11th. I understand the Club is considering another redesign to bring back even more of the Raynor influence. Did you pick up any scuttlebutt on that occurring?


Pat,

Did you have a chance to play either course before it's restoration?

I did have the opportunity to play the original Shore Course and Mike Stranz did a fantastic job of converting a rather mundane layout into a world class golf course. There were always drainage issues, especially down by 17 Mile Drive. Although the original course had a wonderful set of Poa Annua greens there was liitle to write home about regarding the layout. Mike completely reveresed the routing from a clockwise one, to one going counteclockwise, so the views towards Spyglass Hill and Cypress Point would become the background. Now I know you were completely unimpreesed by those views, as your attention is drawn only to the golf course itself, but if you had allowed yourself to take them in you would have been mighty impressed! The sand capping of the layout is what really makes the difference, I'm sure you noticed that it was much easier to run the ball in on the Shore Course. I also love how he turned a very linear golf course into one that has a very serpentine nature; the holes all tend to bend and twist rather that head straight to the green in a runway fashion.

The Dunes Course also had drainage issues and Rees Jones was asked to improve that in his redesign. Instead of sand capping he chose to rumple the fairways; a cheaper but less effective solution. There is definitely a little Raynor flavour on the Dunes, especially going from the biaritz par 3 6th to the short par 3 11th. I understand the Club is considering another redesign to bring back even more of the Raynor influence. Did you pick up any scuttlebutt on that occurring?

Pete,

The 1925 Raynor course was not one of his best designs, in fact it was quite mundane.

Rees Jones came in and did a remarkably good job on the budget provide him. He suggested sand capping but it was considered and then declared as too expensive.

Jones did extensive work on the first and second holes. Raised the green on the par 3 fourth hole by some six feet and making it a real Biarritz with improved bunkering. The fifth hole was improved by lowering the height of the fairway some feet to allow the shorter hitter to find the fairway off the tee. The sixth and seventh had some minor alterations with the latter hole receiving a bunker on the right side of the fairway, not left. The eighth and ninth received improved greens and bunkering. The tenth needed no improvement.
Now we come to the real improvement of the ‘Raynor’ course. The eleventh hole was a par four of about  340 yards. He moved the green to higher ground in front of what is now the half-way house. There was a ditch between the eleventh and twelfth fairways that flowed down to the ocean. He eliminated an ugly element on the hole and improved on the drainage considerably. The twelfth hole went from a throw away hole to outstanding one. Lengthened and removing a copse of dying Cypress it opened up a vista of the ocean and Spanish Bay. The fourteenth hole was a par three a couple of paces of the Seventeen Mile Drive. Quite possibly he created one of the better par threes on the Peninsula by moving the hole to the water’s edge and the Tiger tee back amongst the rocks. The sixteenth hole used to be a very short par four and straight ahead leading to the driving range. It is now a dog-leg left at a right angle. The seventeenth hole received the most intriguing putting surface of the course.

When comparing the old and current version I remember that my partner in the 1982 MPCC Invitational, Ray Leach, drove the old 5th, 11th and 16th holes. This with wound balls and wooden headed clubs.

In passing Rees did the job on time for $2,800.00. I have always loved the Dunes both pre and post Rees Jones and I cannot understand the animus he receives on this site.

Bob
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 04:19:43 PM by Bob_Huntley »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: I don't think I can recall a better combination of
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2013, 04:43:53 PM »
Pat,

Did you have a chance to play either course before it's restoration?

Unfortunately not


I did have the opportunity to play the original Shore Course and Mike Stranz did a fantastic job of converting a rather mundane layout into a world class golf course. There were always drainage issues, especially down by 17 Mile Drive. Although the original course had a wonderful set of Poa Annua greens there was liitle to write home about regarding the layout. Mike completely reveresed the routing from a clockwise one, to one going counteclockwise, so the views towards Spyglass Hill and Cypress Point would become the background. Now I know you were completely unimpreesed by those views, as your attention is drawn only to the golf course itself, but if you had allowed yourself to take them in you would have been mighty impressed! The sand capping of the layout is what really makes the difference, I'm sure you noticed that it was much easier to run the ball in on the Shore Course. I also love how he turned a very linear golf course into one that has a very serpentine nature; the holes all tend to bend and twist rather that head straight to the green in a runway fashion.

I had heard that Mike's work was extensive and that it dramatically improved the golf course.

When playing the course I had no idea where Spyglass or CPC were, as I was consumed by the hole I was playing, including it's visual.
Standing on several elevated tees it's hard not to notice other holes on the golf course, the ocean, rocks and beach.
But what I liked most was the noise made by the barking seals.


The Dunes Course also had drainage issues and Rees Jones was asked to improve that in his redesign. Instead of sand capping he chose to rumple the fairways; a cheaper but less effective solution. There is definetly a little Raynor flavour on the Dunes, especially going from the biaritz par 3 6th to the short par 3 11th. I understand the Club is considering another redesign to bring back even more of the Raynor influence. Did you pick up any scuttlebutt on that occurring?

I think you can see where drainage might still be a problem, with the 9th high on the list.

The 4th is the par 3, the 6th a terrific dogleg right with a long bunker at the corner challenging the golfer off the tee.

I believe Fazio is being brought in, but when I asked what direction or mission statement would be presented to him, it seemed to be unknown.

My hope would be that "window dressing" or "glitz" isn't the order of the day.

Once you open the course up to alterations....... when and where does it end ?

And, if you don't know what you want, you usually end up getting what you didn't want.

Hopefully, they'll give careful consideration to any and all presentations.