What are the fastest greens

[Ed Brzezowski]

Ok, just tossing this out to the brethern. Does really fast equal really good? Is the game better when you wrap your putter in cotton?
Personally I find defensive putting offensive. Standing over a downhill ten footer at Merion recently I was wondering if I should have brought the wedge over with me. Making it was out of the question, keeping it on the green was the primary objective.

Are we better off at these speeds or just crazy, well moronic, sorry.

[Ben Sims]

Ed,

Thanks for being only the second guy in 75 posts to stop the insanity.  This thread backs up the theory that many on GCA.com talk good game, but end up being just like all the other average joe golfers.  They want their stump...er Stimp to be bigger than the other guys'.

[BHoover]

Ed,

Thanks for being only the second guy in 75 posts to stop the insanity.  This thread backs up the theory that many on GCA.com talk good game, but end up being just like all the other average joe golfers.  They want their stump...er Stimp to be bigger than the other guys'.

I disagree with this being insanity.  Okay, maybe a high Stimp rating isn't the end-all be-all, but fast greens are not per se bad.  I'd much rather play quick greens than extremely slow.  If that makes me a bad person, so be it.  I make no apologies for liking fast greens.  But, I definitely don't care about any particular Stimp rating.

[Tim Martin]

Ed,

Thanks for being only the second guy in 75 posts to stop the insanity.  This thread backs up the theory that many on GCA.com talk good game, but end up being just like all the other average joe golfers.  They want their stump...er Stimp to be bigger than the other guys'.

I think the goal of this thread was to identify the fastest greens and many of the posters have done just that in their realm of experience. If anything people seem to think that the examples they are referencing were scary/over the top. I am missing the insanity reference as to those members that have weighed in.

[Thomas Dai]

When looking at the UK based Finegolf website I came across a device called the 'Greenstester', a different approach to the Stimpmeter, focusing on trueness of roll rather than speed.

Here's the weblink - http://www.finegolf.co.uk/what-is-fine-golf/value-in-finegolf/the-greenstester/

Anyone have experience of it or anything similar?

All the best.

[George Freeman]

I also just played Lawsonia links, it was surprising how lightning fast they were.  I had never heard of them being so firm and fast.  With greens this size, I was definitely putting defensively.  Coming from continental Europe, it was a shock to the system.

Wow - that makes me want to get up there this fall even more than I already wanted to.  Those greens are so good but all three times I've played the course I have always wanted them to be a little bit faster to make the undulations really stand out.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Greens are always the fastest (quickest) just before they die.

Do you remember who said that, Ian?

[Carl Nichols]

Ed,

Thanks for being only the second guy in 75 posts to stop the insanity.  This thread backs up the theory that many on GCA.com talk good game, but end up being just like all the other average joe golfers.  They want their stump...er Stimp to be bigger than the other guys'.

I think the goal of this thread was to identify the fastest greens and many of the posters have done just that in their realm of experience. If anything people seem to think that the examples they are referencing were scary/over the top. I am missing the insanity reference as to those members that have weighed in.

That's certainly how I read the thread.  It would be like asking "What course has the longest primary rough?"  Answering that question doesn't mean you think long rough is the greatest thing in the world.

[Frank Sekulic]

Fastest greens I ever played were at Plainfield and at Winged Foot, granted this was about 6 years ago, so I have no idea how they are rolling in 2013 but, all I remember is putting and starting to laugh a few seconds later.

[Patrick_Mucci]

MPCC Shore in February; they were the fastest greens I have ever putted on.

Kenny,

After giving it more thought, I'd agree with you.

I think the micro climate at MPCC lends itself to maintaining the greens at high speeds at all times, whereas other courses have to be more conscious of the weather in order to achieve fast and firm, whereas MPCC can do it on a consistent daily basis.

P.S.  the Dunes course's greens aren't much slower.

Both courses promote fast and firm conditions with ideal playing surface.

Interestingly, both courses have different grass.

On is Bent, the other Rye.

They have to form the best 36 hole complex of any course in the U.S.

[J_ Crisham]

MPCC Shore in February; they were the fastest greens I have ever putted on.

Kenny,

After giving it more thought, I'd agree with you.

I think the micro climate at MPCC lends itself to maintaining the greens at high speeds at all times, whereas other courses have to be more conscious of the weather in order to achieve fast and firm, whereas MPCC can do it on a consistent daily basis.

P.S.  the Dunes course's greens aren't much slower.

Both courses promote fast and firm conditions with ideal playing surface.

Interestingly, both courses have different grass.

On is Bent, the other Rye.

They have to form the best 36 hole complex of any course in the U.S.

Better than Winged Foot ,Oakland Hills, Olympia Fields,and Baltusrol ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

JCrisham,

ABSOLUTELY

They are sensational and each has a distinct personality

[J_ Crisham]

JCrisham,

ABSOLUTELY

They are sensational and each has a distinct personality

I've always considered MPCC the club I would join if I lived in PB-on the west coast I enjoy it more than LACC or Riv. The 36 hole clubs I listed are clubs that have extremely strong second courses that are often overshadowed. The Shore and Dunes are a toss up in my book- hard to pick which is better. The only questionable hole on the Shore is 18- as they say it is what it is. Tough piece of property to fashion the finisher on. You surprised me- I assumed wrongly that WF would be your top 36 hole club!

[John Foley]

I played Oakmont in November and the greens were ridiculous. Wonder what they are like for the member guest?

Can anyone compare them with Augusta?

I'm sure any super can ramp up the speed for an event and we'd be very impressed. My 9 hole courses greens are fantastic and super fast - niot sure of a number right now - this is right after the club championship. Not sure I want them that fast day to day.

[Kenny Baer]

Pat,
I have only played MPCC shore and dunes 1x each both in Feb of this yr. I am used to fast greens, I belong to a club that consistently keeps our greens at 11-13 during spring and fall. I have seen the super measure them and they are posted. The Dunes had fast greens, what I was "used" to, the Shore were a notch above that. They were absolute lighting.

I would rather have fast greens any day of the week. It makes the architecture shine an increases the thought and challenge on every shot approaching and around the greens. Same as why I like fast and firm fairways. I suppose greens can get to fast but I have rarely seen it. An example I can give is East Lake, when they replaced their greens and were able to firm and increase the speed it improved the quality of the course 10 fold.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JCrisham,

ABSOLUTELY

They are sensational and each has a distinct personality

I've always considered MPCC the club I would join if I lived in PB-on the west coast I enjoy it more than LACC or Riv. The 36 hole clubs I listed are clubs that have extremely strong second courses that are often overshadowed. The Shore and Dunes are a toss up in my book- hard to pick which is better. The only questionable hole on the Shore is 18- as they say it is what it is. Tough piece of property to fashion the finisher on. You surprised me- I assumed wrongly that WF would be your top 36 hole club!

By what criteria ?

Difficulty ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I played Oakmont in November and the greens were ridiculous. Wonder what they are like for the member guest?

I bet they're even faster in January when they're covered in ice

Can anyone compare them with Augusta?


I can, and MPCC's are faster.

The problem is you morons are trying to compare the greens on courses that are prepared for PGA Tour players versus every day play


I'm sure any super can ramp up the speed for an event and we'd be very impressed. My 9 hole courses greens are fantastic and super fast - niot sure of a number right now - this is right after the club championship. Not sure I want them that fast day to day.

It's not just that they're fast, they're also firm.
And that combination effects your approach and recovery shots
And, working backwards, you tee shots

Like Oakmont and other courses that keep their greens fast, I think the members adapt to it.
The member we played with had an uncanny ability to read the greens at the proper pace.
I loved hitting bunker shots to those greens because you didn't have to muscle the ball, just hit it to the proper spot and let it feed to the hole.
And, since the fairways are so tight, the rescue/3-wood from 10 to 50 yards off the green was fun.
Neil Regan would be on cloud nine.

And then there's the heavy breeze off the ocean and the fog to contend with

I had always heard great things about MPCC, but my experience has exceeded my expectations

[Jim Franklin]

Ed,

Thanks for being only the second guy in 75 posts to stop the insanity.  This thread backs up the theory that many on GCA.com talk good game, but end up being just like all the other average joe golfers.  They want their stump...er Stimp to be bigger than the other guys'.

Because someone named a few courses with really fast greens means they want every course to have really fast greens??? No. I like my greens to be smooth and roll true. Medium or fast is fine. Even slow like Scotland is fine as long as they roll true.

[Jim Franklin]

Pat, have you ever played Grandfather G&CC?

[Mark Pearce]

Even more insane than the nonsense this thread has become is the way that people posting on attempt to deny that it is, really, a thread glorifying insane green speeds.  People may say that the greens were "scary" or "over the top" (actually, very few have even hidden behind that) but, in all of those cases it's clear that that their "scary" or "over the top" is rather like Spinal Tap taking the volume to 11.  It's seen as a good thing.  As if putting on greens stimping at 13 is some sort of test of manhood.  If the denizens of a site like this are so beholden to stupid green speeds, what hope fior the rest of the golfing population?  Really rather depressing.

[Sean Leary]

Even more insane than the nonsense this thread has become is the way that people posting on attempt to deny that it is, really, a thread glorifying insane green speeds.  People may say that the greens were "scary" or "over the top" (actually, very few have even hidden behind that) but, in all of those cases it's clear that that their "scary" or "over the top" is rather like Spinal Tap taking the volume to 11.  It's seen as a good thing.  As if putting on greens stimping at 13 is some sort of test of manhood.  If the denizens of a site like this are so beholden to stupid green speeds, what hope fior the rest of the golfing population?  Really rather depressing.

Is this any thread any different than a most difficult course you have played thread? Isn't is possible that this thread can be read two ways like that one is? For some for sure it is a badge of honor, and for some it give them the opportunity to stand on their soapbox and lament all that is not pure in the game.

[Jim Sherma]

Speaking of stupid green speeds given the architecture I have a story from a few years back that always stuck with me.

I was playing in a 3-day team tournament at Blue Ridge Country Club in Harrisburg, PA. The course was known for fast greens and they mostly sloped pretty hard back to front. As one member summed up the course, hit it straight and keep it below the hole and then do it again and again. So, the day that the tournament was a two-man scramble my partner and I were teamed up with two Blue Ridge members and we were on the 8th hole. They hit their approaches and one ended up just past the hole, maybe 15 feet away and the other was short of the left front bunker in the rough. The members chose the ball in the rough and tried to get up and down. Talking to them afterwards they said that they knew they were off the green if they missed the putt and thought they could stop the chip in a better place. Interestingly they felt that this was something to be proud of.

Even though I tend to putt faster greens better than slower ones, I never understood green speed fetish, especially when the architecture is not consistent with the maintenance practices.

[Mark Pearce]

Even more insane than the nonsense this thread has become is the way that people posting on attempt to deny that it is, really, a thread glorifying insane green speeds.  People may say that the greens were "scary" or "over the top" (actually, very few have even hidden behind that) but, in all of those cases it's clear that that their "scary" or "over the top" is rather like Spinal Tap taking the volume to 11.  It's seen as a good thing.  As if putting on greens stimping at 13 is some sort of test of manhood.  If the denizens of a site like this are so beholden to stupid green speeds, what hope fior the rest of the golfing population?  Really rather depressing.

Is this any thread any different than a most difficult course you have played thread?

No, it isn't.  Doesn't make it any better, though.

Isn't is possible that this thread can be read two ways like that one is?  

Only if you are being particularly generous to the participants.

For some for sure it is a badge of honor, and for some it give them the opportunity to stand on their soapbox and lament all that is not pure in the game.

And for a particularly confused majority, it's both.

[Sean Leary]

Even more insane than the nonsense this thread has become is the way that people posting on attempt to deny that it is, really, a thread glorifying insane green speeds.  People may say that the greens were "scary" or "over the top" (actually, very few have even hidden behind that) but, in all of those cases it's clear that that their "scary" or "over the top" is rather like Spinal Tap taking the volume to 11.  It's seen as a good thing.  As if putting on greens stimping at 13 is some sort of test of manhood.  If the denizens of a site like this are so beholden to stupid green speeds, what hope fior the rest of the golfing population?  Really rather depressing.

Is this any thread any different than a most difficult course you have played thread?

No, it isn't.  Doesn't make it any better, though.

Isn't is possible that this thread can be read two ways like that one is?  

Only if you are being particularly generous to the participants.

For some for sure it is a badge of honor, and for some it give them the opportunity to stand on their soapbox and lament all that is not pure in the game.

And for a particularly confused majority, it's both.

I keep seeing words like shocking that describe the green speed. I read about people putting off greens. Not sure how one couldn't see these descriptions as possibly a negative in some peoples minds.

As far as the hardest course threads,  I know when I see someone describe a course as over the top hard, I see that as a negative.

People that like greens that are fast aren't "right". But they aren't "wrong" either.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Some people here have an aversion to speedy greens?

I think the main concern shouldn't be about the speed necessarily. The concern should be when interesting undulatiing greens and fairways are dumbed down to make the maintenance and playability of the greens easier using the stimpmeter as an argument.

Links fairways and greens in Scotland can also get very fast in high summer when the grass stops growing, (see Muirfield). It makes for some really interesting golf. The rest of the year the speeds will drop as the greens can't be cut low enough due to the undulations.

So for me there is nothing wrong with high speeds now and then, as long as the greens and fairways remain undulating.