Why no love for Indianwood Old?

[Michael Whitaker]

I played Indianwood Old today and LOVED it!!! A classic old course with beautifully diverse holes. Great walk! It reminded me of a course you might find on Long Island. I had issues with lot of the mowing lines, but other than that I thought it was outstanding.

When I searched this site and the magazine rankings I was shocked to see little love for Indianwood.

I've played a lot of the worlds top courses and Indianwood is as good or better IMHO than a good number that get a lot of recognition. It is fun for choppers like me, but at the same time very challenging for good players.

What's the problem?

[hhuffines]

I enjoyed playing there last year prior to Senior US Open but some of our group were less enthusiastic.   There were some grass mowing lines that seemed strange and high rough covered areas that should have been mowed but maybe the USGA made some changes.  

[David Kelly]

Mark,

How firm was it?  It was pretty soft when I was there a few summers ago despite the weather not being an issue.

[JC Jones]

That's a great question Gentleman Whitaker.  As with all Detroit area gems, I've not yet gotten to Indianwood but I need to.  I know many who have the same reaction/thoughts as you.

[Tom_Doak]

It's a very cool place, with all the fescue waving in the wind.  But, every green is pretty much the same, except for the crazy wild 18th, a huge undulating punchbowl that's one of the biggest greens I've ever seen.

[David_Tepper]

http://www.iwgcc.com/

Mike -

It never hurts to let us know at least in what state these courses are located. Some of us (probably most of us) are not nearly as well traveled as you are.

DT

[Ed Oden]

It's a very cool place, with all the fescue waving in the wind.  But, every green is pretty much the same, except for the crazy wild 18th, a huge undulating punchbowl that's one of the biggest greens I've ever seen.

Tom, this is my biggest issue as well.  Every green is a small punchbowl, except for the 18th, which is a gigantic punchbowl.  Not enough variety in the greens for my tastes.  I also thought the fairway bunkering on the 6th hole was very poor.  It didn't fit at all in my opinion.  And as others have notes, ithe mowing lines really need some work.  While I enjoyed Indianwood quite a bit and would look forward to playing there again, at the end of the day I just see it as a good (perhaps very good), but not great golf course.

[Bill_McBride]

http://www.iwgcc.com/

Mike -

It never hurts to let us know at least in what state these courses are located. Some of us (probably most of us) are not nearly as well traveled as you are.

DT

No one is as well traveled as Mr. Whitty. 

[Sean_A]

http://www.iwgcc.com/

Mike -

It never hurts to let us know at least in what state these courses are located.

DT

Isn't that Whitty's point?  Why don't you know where Indianwood is?

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

It's a very cool place, with all the fescue waving in the wind.  But, every green is pretty much the same, except for the crazy wild 18th, a huge undulating punchbowl that's one of the biggest greens I've ever seen.

Tom, this is my biggest issue as well.  Every green is a small punchbowl, except for the 18th, which is a gigantic punchbowl.  Not enough variety in the greens for my tastes.  I also thought the fairway bunkering on the 6th hole was very poor.  It didn't fit at all in my opinion.  And as others have notes, ithe mowing lines really need some work.  While I enjoyed Indianwood quite a bit and would look forward to playing there again, at the end of the day I just see it as a good (perhaps very good), but not great golf course.

Is the course old enough to be pre-irrigation and therefore used dew ponding to help retain water?

Jon

[Michael Whitaker]

The course is located northeast of Detroit in Lake Orion, Mi. It was built in 1925 and designed by Wildred Reid, an English professional from Nottingham.

The club has hosted two US Women's Opens and a US Senior Open, so I thought it was fairly well known.

Ed - I don't agree with your assessment of the greens.  There are maybe three or four "punchbowl" type greens. Lot's of back to front slopes, which is a little repetitive, but several are very interesting and all are interesting enough. I'm off to Forest Dunes, but I'll post more later and we can discuss.

[Jon Heise]

I really liked Indianwood!  Only one round there, but for some reason what struck me was the colors.  Whispy browns, dark greens.  Fun course with nice variety.  Would I pat a ton for it?  Naw.  But I'd like to love to see it once a year or so!

[Jeff_Brauer]

I love the place.  Didn't realize others didn't.  Can't recall too many funky mowing lines.  I do recall the 18th with all its new fw bunkers looking out of place.  9 was a little funky, too.

Didn't recall the greens all being too much the same either.  The 16th green, with its little horseshoe around the front right pin was inspirational to me and I have borrowed that one a few times since.

[Ed Oden]

Ed - I don't agree with your assessment of the greens.  There are maybe three or four "punchbowl" type greens. Lot's of back to front slopes, which is a little repetitive, but several are very interesting and all are interesting enough. I'm off to Forest Dunes, but I'll post more later and we can discuss.

Mike, differences of opinion are what make the world go round!  I'm not saying that all of the greens are exactly the same or that they are all pure punchbowls.  But, in almost every case, they are tilted back to front with the outer edges raised so that everything funnels to the center.  Scan through these photos to the closest one to each green and I think you will see this is true... http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/sets/72157629911229824/

Again, I really like Indianwood and agree it is great fun.  But you asked in your intial post "What's the problem?"  Just voicing my thoughts on why I don't think it quite compares with the world's best.  Hope you are doing well Mike.  Have fun at Forest Dunes!

Best wishes,

Ed

[Michael Whitaker]

Ed - I think 2, 4, 7, 14 & 16 are punchbowl or punchbowlish greens. The others not so much. Yes some sections of the greens may have a bank that will kick a ball or a cuppy area, but I wouldn't call them punchbowlish... just like every green that slopes from back right to front left isn't a Redan. There are a lot of back to front slopes and that can seem repetitive, but everyone in our group found the greens interesting, sufficiently challenging and fun. The property is perfect for golf with rises and falls that present interesting shots but don't force you to go mountain climbing.

I would like to know more about the history of Indianwood. As Jon suggests, there may be a engineering reason the greens were designed with so many collection areas. What other courses did Reid design? Is this typical of his courses?

[JC Jones]

I could be way off here but in a lot of those pictures it looks like many of the raised edges of the greens are bunkers.  Perhaps its just sand built up over the last 90 years?

[Dustin Ferrell]

Michael,

I've only played it once, but I had a similar reaction after playing it.  I thought there were a couple holes I didn't like (i.e. #9 was awkward i thought), but overall, I've lived in MI almost a decade and hadn't heard much about it up till that point.  I remember walking off the course and telling our host...how the heck is this not a top ranked course in MI? and top 100 US?  Its a great property and when I played it, it was firm and fast.  Interesting tee shots, and some cool greens.  While I see what Tom Doak says regarding the greens, there are a few gems out there in my opinion...forget the hole, but they long Redan style par3 has a great green, and the 18th is really really cool and can leave some insane putts.

Thanks for reminding me....need to get back out there...great course!

[Michael Whitaker]

Dustin - just shows you how we all have personal preferences and biases that color our opinions. I thought #9 was a great hole... one of the best on the course! While there is some sameness to a few of the greens with the back to front theme, we still found them interesting. I can't think of a single one that I thought was a dud.

As David Kelly mentions, the course was a bit soft for my taste... too many ball marks in the fairways and green surrounds. I would love to play the course with firm ground and the mowing lines opened up, but I doubt that is the presentation style favored at this club.

[Ed Oden]

Ed - I think 2, 4, 7, 14 & 16 are punchbowl or punchbowlish greens. The others not so much. Yes some sections of the greens may have a bank that will kick a ball or a cuppy area, but I wouldn't call them punchbowlish... just like every green that slopes from back right to front left isn't a Redan. There are a lot of back to front slopes and that can seem repetitive, but everyone in our group found the greens interesting, sufficiently challenging and fun. The property is perfect for golf with rises and falls that present interesting shots but don't force you to go mountain climbing.

Mike, in addition to the holes you list, I would also add #1...



...#3...



...#9...



...#11...



...#12...



...#13...



...#15...



... and #17...



In each case, the green is a saucer where everything funnels to the center.  Again, I'm not saying they are exactly the same and I'm definitely not saying they aren't challenging or fun.  Rather, I just thought the lack of variety was noticeable to me and the biggest drawback on an otherwise very good golf course.

Best wishes,

Ed

[Michael Whitaker]

Ed - I respectively disagree that those greens are punchbowls. I would agree that each has an area that is cuppy, but they also contain areas that reject the ball or direct it to a different section.  Each of those greens contains a plateau, ridge, hump, false front or slope that will confound an approach shot hit to a different section. If you played on a day when most of the pins were located in one of those cuppy areas then I can see where the multiple punchbowl thoughts originated.

For example, #1 has a subtle ridge that bisects the green into front and back sections. When we played our pin was just above the ridge on the left half of the green and any approach that was short was in jeopardy of rolling back off the front. Long approaches required a delicate putt toward the ridge... hit that one too hard and you face a long uphill right to left comebacker.

I guess I just see more variety in the way the greens are divided into sections. Granted, they are not Fazio sectioned greens and they don't have the drama you might find on C&C greens, but to me they were not detrimental to the quality of the course. I've played a lot of courses (especially in the UK) where the greens are much more mundane and similar. At least at Indianwood you have to really think about where you should leave your approach to make your first putt as easy as possible. Get above the hole or on the wrong side of a slope or ridge and you are fried.

[Bill_McBride]

You could really have fun hitting wedges up onto the hill at #12 and watching them feed back to the hole.  Reminds me of #18 at the Valley Club.

[Mark McKeever]

Wow.  The course looks really interesting from Google maps!

Mark

[Michael Whitaker]

You could really have fun hitting wedges up onto the hill at #12 and watching them feed back to the hole.  Reminds me of #18 at the Valley Club.

If the pin was located in one of those sections. That green actually has four sections, two in the back and two in the front. The pin in that photo is on a little ridge just between the two front sections... a tough spot. You can see the two balls on the green are above the pin... one in the back right section, one in the back left section. Those putts would have to judged accurately as they will both need to ride a ridge down to the hole... too far to one side or the other would cause the ball to run off into one of the front sections where you would be left with an difficult curving comebacker.

[Michael Whitaker]

Wow.  The course looks really interesting from Google maps!

Mark

Looks good on the ground, too!

[George Freeman]

For what it's worth, I played Indianwood Old 5-6 years ago and to this day it is still one of my favorite courses in Michigan.  That said, the mowing lines do look a little tight in the recent pictures.  It would be great to have the fairway mown out to those bunkers!

Also, I don't recall thinking the greens were anything but fun and interesting.

Really fun golf course.  And I agree, it slips under the radar frequently.