[David Davis]

I was thinking about this last weekend at my home club Noordwijkse. Holes 1 and 10 are right at the clubhouse but I simply dread starting on 10. It has to do with the build up of the round and the continuity of the course IMO. 10 is a really tough tee shot and the 2nd most difficult hole on the course. Well over 400 meters from the backs and requiring a 220 meter carry to reach the customary blind second shot.

You get the idea. Do you know of other courses that really are set up to start on #1 only? Let's exclude courses that don't come back to the clubhouse after 9 because obviously those present their own challenge and answer the question outright.

[Bill_McBride]

I think a course should be designed to start play at #1 with a series of holes that get you into the round and build the intensity of challenge toward the finish.   Starting halfway through that process therefore doesn't make sense to me.  My current course has a difficult lengthy par 4 starter and an easier short par 4 tenth nearby, so I guess our GCA, Jerry Pate, couldn't read my mind!

[Frank Pont]

At De Pan starting on hole 1 (a short par 5) is much easier than on the quirky 10th hole.

In general I am a big fan of routings with loops of 9, 6 and 3 holes.

[Jason Thurman]

For me, the rhythm and ebb and flow of a great course comes more from the variety and sequencing of the holes themselves than from any long and constant build up toward a climactic finish. In fact, a glance at most of my favorite courses played reveals that the majority probably have their best holes toward the early or middle part of the round.

From my personal Top 10:

Courses that Peak Early
Pebble Beach - Things pretty much peak from 3-10 for me. There are some great holes on the back, but nothing to match the drama of those.
Prairie Club (Dunes) - I really love everything from 4-10, and 13 is my favorite on the course. The whole course is good, but that's the peak for me.
Lawsonia - 13 is the last great hole in my book, though I like the closing stretch too. The best run is, once again, from 4-10.

Courses that Peak Near the End
Idle Hour - It's scary walking off 13 and knowing that you've played both your last hole that isn't a par 4 and your last hole that's under 440 yards or so.
Erin Hills - Peaks toward the end. The stretch from 14-17 is really good, and 18 isn't especially interesting but it is beastly.

Courses with a Rollicking, Constantly Varying Ebb and Flow
Whistling Straits - The best hole might be 17, but its nines are so similarly routed and so many of its holes similar looking that it's hard to pick out a crescendo. That's my biggest knock against the course actually.
Blackwolf Run (River) - This one, on the other hand, is pretty much ideal in terms of the pacing of a round. It's constantly mixing tough holes with easier holes, and sporty holes with stout holes, and holes with lots of options against holes that require a good shot. It might be the course I've played where the experience of different groups varies the least after a shotgun start.
The Harvester - Similar to Blackwolf Run. It ends strongly, but then again, 16 is probably the worst hole on the course.
Wild Horse - Pretty much the definition of rollicking.
No. 2 - How do you pick a favorite stretch at Pinehurst?

In theory, I probably prefer the "rollicking" routing that ebbs and flows constantly. On those courses, it really doesn't matter much which hole you start or finish on. I'm not sure every property is capable of presenting such a varied challenge though, and so sometimes the experience can definitely be changed by teeing off on 10 instead of 1.

[Will MacEwen]

One local course alternated their nines weekly, so the people who only play 9 get a variety.   

[Josh Tarble]

I don't know where this ties into your questions but I immediately thought of Crooked Stick.  The start of the round would be much better if you started on #10 however I think the round on the whole would be worse if you crossed back and played #1 as the 10th.  

All in all, the Stick is definitely a course that builds up to a world-class stretch from 11-15 and finishes realy tough.   Starting on 10 would take that away somewhat.

[David Davis]

It seems like a majority of the classic routings never even considered starting at 10. Many of them you can't unless you want to walk half way through the course to do so.

there are many examples of this.

Frank, interesting being such a bug Colt fan that you would say you like those types of courses. Off hand I can't really think of any Colt courses that are set up to also start at 10. That takes away his entire principle of easing your way into a round.

My argument at a lot of these clubs applies to tournament golf. It's almost unfair at our club to be in a tournament and get stuck starting from 10. I think that's the case with many of those clubs.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Off hand I can't really think of any Colt courses that are set up to also start at 10. That takes away his entire principle of easing your way into a round.

Hamilton is one - it has three nines that start by the clubhouse although one of the nines was not designed by Colt.  Toronto also has a 10th hole by the clubhouse, along with the 12th hole.

My argument at a lot of these clubs applies to tournament golf. It's almost unfair at our club to be in a tournament and get stuck starting from 10. I think that's the case with many of those clubs.

This happens very often in PGA tournaments, I think it is pretty much the norm these days.  And I believe it also happens in the US Open and it happened at this year's PGA.  It doesn't happen at the Masters but the club has switched the nines from the original routing so the course today does not follow The Good Doctor's original routing.

[Sean_A]

Well designed courses can handle teeing off from 1 or 10 so long as both start near the house and 9 and 18 finish near the house.  Bill, think of Delamere Forest, does it make any difference?  In fact, I prefer it when the course comes back to the house after 5 or 6 holes because it offers two distinct lengths of loops for those not playing 18.  As Frank suggests, archies need to find ways to better encourage more play on courses and what better way than to have varying loops and triangles in the design?  

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

It seems like a majority of the classic routings never even considered starting at 10. Many of them you can't unless you want to walk half way through the course to do so.

there are many examples of this.

Frank, interesting being such a bug Colt fan that you would say you like those types of courses. Off hand I can't really think of any Colt courses that are set up to also start at 10. That takes away his entire principle of easing your way into a round.

St George's Hill would be one obvious example of a Colt course that is absolutely set up for a two tee start. Both 1 and 10 are tough starters, too!

[Sean_A]

Adam

Yes.  I don't tink it makes any difference for

Edgbaston
Princes (may even be better playing dunes-shore)
Perranporth
Harborne (may be better with 9s switched)
Trump I (may be better with 9s switched)
Old Town

In doing this its incredible how many courses I like which don't have two loops of 9.

Ciao

[David Davis]

Sean,

That's kind of my point too, how many of the great courses or classic courses don't really have two loops. A lot and of these I would argue that several are not really meant to be started half way through. Sure you can do it, but you could also start on any hole (like in a shotgun) but somehow it often just doesn't work out ideally.

[Bill_McBride]

Well designed courses can handle teeing off from 1 or 10 so long as both start near the house and 9 and 18 finish near the house.  Bill, think of Delamere Forest, does it make any difference?  In fact, I prefer it when the course comes back to the house after 5 or 6 holes because it offers two distinct lengths of loops for those not playing 18.  As Frank suggests, archies need to find ways to better encourage more play on courses and what better way than to have varying loops and triangles in the design?  

Ciao

Sean, we started on 10 at Delamere due to a member event starting on 1 at the same time.  IIRC (always a problem), 10 was a stout uphill par 4 while 1 was a short par 4.  So my preference would have been to start on the first but it didn't really matter given the variety of holes at Delamere.

[Tom_Doak]

The difference [scoring-wise] is entirely in your heads.  It's the same 18 holes.  If you are typically a slow starter and you get stuck on a difficult back nine first, that might be a tougher stretch than if you were properly warmed up ... but the front nine should then play easier and allow you to get those shots back, provided you don't start making excuses for yourself.

Don't get me wrong; I think the rhythm and flow of a course is an important piece of how people enjoy it.  But most great songs are still great even if you turn them on halfway through.

[Thomas Dai]

Another factor to consider is that hole each has a stroke index indicating where handicap shots are to be permitted, particularly in amateur matchplay (and also in stableford etc). Matchplay games do not always carry on for a full 18-holes and thus the starting point can have a significant effect on the result of a match as the stoke indexing pattern will be different for the front-9 and the back-9.

All the best

[David Davis]

The difference [scoring-wise] is entirely in your heads.  It's the same 18 holes.  If you are typically a slow starter and you get stuck on a difficult back nine first, that might be a tougher stretch than if you were properly warmed up ... but the front nine should then play easier and allow you to get those shots back, provided you don't start making excuses for yourself.

Don't get me wrong; I think the rhythm and flow of a course is an important piece of how people enjoy it.  But most great songs are still great even if you turn them on halfway through.

Tom, I'm not sure if it really is in your head. I'll pick on my own club again. I'd rather hit a 3 wood or rescue club off the first tee to ease my way into a round, especially if it's a tournament round than to have to step up to the first tee and try to swing away at my driver knowing I have to carry it 200 meters plus. Maybe you'd argue that I'm a slow starter and I probably wouldn't disagree I supposed but I always have the feeling I have to kind of play myself into a round regardless if I start out with a birdie or not. I guess that's probably because I'm just not good enough or consistent enough to do otherwise and maybe that is indeed in my head.

Perhaps my entire concept of playing myself into a round, which I use to use in tennis a lot as well is really off. However, it does allow me the peace of mind that when I start out with bogeys or worse I'm not out of it and can still turn in a good score.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Another factor to consider is that hole each has a stroke index indicating where handicap shots are to be permitted, particularly in amateur matchplay (and also in stableford etc). Matchplay games do not always carry on for a full 18-holes and thus the starting point can have a significant effect on the result of a match as the stoke indexing pattern will be different for the front-9 and the back-9.

Which is why, at least in North America, the odd number handicap index holes are on the front nine and the even numbers holes are on the back nine.  That minimzies the problem you have.

From the USGA Handicapping FAQ:

•Allocate the odd-numbered strokes to the front-nine holes and the even-numbered strokes to the back-nine holes—unless the back-nine is decidedly more difficult than the front—you can reverse the allocation.
•Avoid allocating the low numbered holes to the beginning or end of the nine holes

I am surprised that no one has raised the issue of shotgun starts.  When this is the case you can be starting at any hole, not just 1 & 10 and it may make for an even more disjointed round.  At my club many of the major tournaments, like our member-guests and member-member are shotgun starts and that is the case in other tournaments that I have played (although our Club Championship always starts at #1)

[Bill_McBride]

Another factor to consider is that hole each has a stroke index indicating where handicap shots are to be permitted, particularly in amateur matchplay (and also in stableford etc). Matchplay games do not always carry on for a full 18-holes and thus the starting point can have a significant effect on the result of a match as the stoke indexing pattern will be different for the front-9 and the back-9.

Which is why, at least in North America, the odd number handicap index holes are on the front nine and the even numbers holes are on the back nine.  That minimzies the problem you have.

From the USGA Handicapping FAQ:

•Allocate the odd-numbered strokes to the front-nine holes and the even-numbered strokes to the back-nine holes—unless the back-nine is decidedly more difficult than the front—you can reverse the allocation.
•Avoid allocating the low numbered holes to the beginning or end of the nine holes

I am surprised that no one has raised the issue of shotgun starts.  When this is the case you can be starting at any hole, not just 1 & 10 and it may make for an even more disjointed round.  At my club many of the major tournaments, like our member-guests and member-member are shotgun starts and that is the case in other tournaments that I have played (although our Club Championship always starts at #1)

Another reason why I hate shotgun starts!

[Howard Riefs]

The difference [scoring-wise] is entirely in your heads.  It's the same 18 holes.  If you are typically a slow starter and you get stuck on a difficult back nine first, that might be a tougher stretch than if you were properly warmed up ... but the front nine should then play easier and allow you to get those shots back, provided you don't start making excuses for yourself.
 

Reminds me of taking my wife to Kingsley for her first trip in July. I intentionally started the round on the back nine, even if it plays about 1.5 to 2 strokes more difficult than the front.  

Why? #1 is a ball-buster, uphill par five with the massive centerline bunker ... and then you go to #2, which is the most difficult par 3 on the course. She hits a good ball but didn't need that kind of start to a round.  Instead, we ventured over to #10, which could be described as a "gentle handshake" par 4.  

"A wise decision," offered the club GM.

[Josh Stevens]

I guess we all have our fav 9, but I find the stroke index does make a difference when playing par or stableford.

If I play from 1, then I  am coming home getting shots on the last three holes.  If  i start on 10, then I get no shots on the last three holes.

It shouldnt but it does change your mental approach.  Starting from 1, I have a buffer at the end of the round, that I can attack if i need the points, or play defensively for bogey and safely get three 2 pointers to protect a good score.

Playing the other order, I have to par the last three and that does add pressure.

[Sean_A]

Another factor to consider is that hole each has a stroke index indicating where handicap shots are to be permitted, particularly in amateur matchplay (and also in stableford etc). Matchplay games do not always carry on for a full 18-holes and thus the starting point can have a significant effect on the result of a match as the stoke indexing pattern will be different for the front-9 and the back-9.

Which is why, at least in North America, the odd number handicap index holes are on the front nine and the even numbers holes are on the back nine.  That minimzies the problem you have.

From the USGA Handicapping FAQ:

•Allocate the odd-numbered strokes to the front-nine holes and the even-numbered strokes to the back-nine holes—unless the back-nine is decidedly more difficult than the front—you can reverse the allocation.
•Avoid allocating the low numbered holes to the beginning or end of the nine holes

I am surprised that no one has raised the issue of shotgun starts.  When this is the case you can be starting at any hole, not just 1 & 10 and it may make for an even more disjointed round.  At my club many of the major tournaments, like our member-guests and member-member are shotgun starts and that is the case in other tournaments that I have played (although our Club Championship always starts at #1)

Wayne

The same thing is done in the UK.  The difference is clubs try to avoid a low index on #1 or the last few holes of the round.  Some clubs are forward thinking and avoid a low index for 8 and 9 as well.  Of course, with so many restrictions sometimes it is a bit bewildering as to why some holes have low indexes and some higher than one would have thought. 

I am firmly in the camp that we should reverse how indexes are decided.  I think the easier holes should be the lower indexes if we are trying to even a game between a scratch player and an 18 capper.

Ciao 

[Thomas Dai]

There's also the hassle in men's handicap matchplay of whether it should full hcp difference or 3/4 hcp difference.

Also, there is the variance in difficulty depending on whether the stroke index is calculated for men from the competition whites or the normal play yellows (usual UK tee colours). For example, a hole may be a short par 5's from the whites and long par-4's from the yellows but will have the same stroke index.

Maddening game sometimes, but still love it.

All the best

[Brent Hutto]

My club's course (Ellis Maples c. 1961) has 27 holes with two nines starting right by the clubhouse and the third just a couple hundred yards away.

The "main 18" that was built first is played today in the reverse of its original order. Turns out there was a creek crossing the original 1st hole maybe 40-50 yards short of the green. A lot of the older guys complained that they couldn't make the carry with their second shot of the day before they were warmed up. So after a decade or so the nines were reversed to save that for the 10th hole. Of course predictably enough about a decade after that the creek was piped and covered over.

Those two nines have a very similar flow, which makes them in my mind pretty interchangeable:

1) Medium-length Par 4 to open

2) Another Par 4

3) First Par 5

4) The shortest Par 4 of each nine

5) First Par 3

6) Long/Hard Par 4

7) Another Par 5

Second Par 3

9) Mismatch on the final hole, both are Par 4's but one is fairly easy (the original 9th) while the other is uphill and difficult (original 18th, now 9th).

Of course with 27 holes and normally two-tee starts each morning, we're as likely to start on one nine as the other except in tournaments. Our "third nine" is the oddball starting off Par 5, Par 3, short Par 4 which is not ideal for pace of play on a starting hole. But it's the shorter and easier nine so overall play is a bit quicker there.

I much prefer the original ordering just because you start in one corner of the property and then the 9th green is adjacent to the 10th tee, the 18th green to the 19th tee and so forth. Nice routing.

[Jud_T]

Howard,

I've never thought of #10 as a "gentle handshake".  What percentage of the time do you think you're on in reg?  There's no question that 1, 2 & 3 make up one of the more difficult opening stretches around, however, particularly for those of us who can't routinely clear the hill on 1 or the swale on 3.  With regard to the topic at hand, one of the reasons alternating 9's works well at Kingsley is because of the differing nature of the two nines, i.e. into and out of the wooded area of the property.  I'd guess the same would apply to Crystal Downs.

p.s.  If they ever have a Wives tournament, my money's on yours!

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