Liberty National

[Lou_Duran]

John how many times have you posted just today? Just about every time I pull up the forum you're on there. It would be one thing if it was a valuable contribution but that is hardly ever the case.
I see you have posted thousand and thousands of times since you were let back on here through Ran's good graces. I know that since then he has asked you nicely not to fill up the forum with your writing. Yet despite his nicely asking you not to post so much you continue to. Your writing is very rarely worthwhile and with the very excessive frequency you continue to post you diminish the quality of the website. I suggest you take a break before you get an involuntary and permanent break like some other incessant posters of low value have.
Good luck.

Huh?  A new sheriff in town?  Maybe the site needs an organizational chart.  

[Jay Flemma]

My favorite memory of the day I played there was when the PR guy said, "We're the greatest golf course in the world.  We're better than Augusta National.  We're Liberty National..."

[Jason Thurman]

LN's reno is an alarming trend. Many on the discussion have hit it square on. For all the $ and work, they should have done better with the shot values and even more so, with the character. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Statue is right there. But it lacks any charm of its own. The course was geared towards the Tour player and was a dredge for the average. Ooops, pardon the 4 million cubic yard pun. Now, the changes will do little for the members, but mollify the Tour. For Chrissake, guys, ur playing for a boat load of cash. Peg it, putt it, and shut the hell up.

Who exactly are the members you're referring to? I don't know too many of them, but here's a breakdown of the ones I do know:

1. An LPGA Tour player
2. A PGA Tour legend
3. A billionaire who spent his own money to do the renovation and is very happy with it
4. A New York resident who is very happy with the renovation
5. A New York icon who is as strongly connected to the city as anyone, and no doubt loves the views of downtown and the city's grandeur
6. Robert Kraft. I don't know much about how he feels about the golf, but I've got to assume he wouldn't spend extra time in New York if he didn't like being there.

So the renovations made the course more interesting for Tour players, didn't diminish the looming influence of the city, and were paid for by members who are happy with the results. How exactly is that a failure for a course whose members are Tour players and city icons and golfers who are happy with the course?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,

# 6 has an existing, long standing relationship with PF, hence you need to exempt him.

[Michael Ryan]

I think it's an important distinction to note that the changes were not for the everyday membership, it was to address the concerns of the PGA TOUR players after the event in 2009.  

I spent the morning at LN yesterday and walked inside the ropes with a notable player who played in 2009.  He was not a fan of the course going in and the first instance of a change he noticed was the third green and the fact that they softened the front portion to allow shots to hold better.  He thought it was a change for the better.  He picked up on a few other changes before I left-nothing to substantial.

As to the club, someone with good background and experience told me "At Liberty National, they tried to build a spectacle.  At Bayonne, they tried to start a golf club".  

[John Kavanaugh]

Did the course get rained on this week?  It looks disappointingly soft.

Watching the web feed of the first I've got to say that it does look like the gunch has been managed well and I like that stream on the first hole.

[Jeff_Brauer]

My favorite LN memory is watching the tourney. I heard the announcer say they were going to interview Bob Cupp in a few minutes.  Just then, phone rings and its Bob.  He and I are both model railroaders, and he thinks to call me with a wiring question at that moment just before the interview.  

I think I would have been preparing my answers for national television and his mind is drifting off........to more important things, of course!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

At one time I was a model railroader.

Loved it

I'm trying to remember where the most incredible set I ever saw was located, it was mind boggling

[John Kavanaugh]

Why can't we admit that the course looks pretty damn good? 

[Josh Tarble]

John,
I'm guessing Liberty National is like a lot of women: good from far but far from good.

[Steve Lapper]

John,
I'm guessing Liberty National is like a lot of women: good from far but far from good.

Only if you like a "5" dressed as a  "Goldigger 7.5" with plenty of plastic surgery!!

[Tommy Williamsen]

Why can't we admit that the course looks pretty damn good? 

John, the course may look good on TV but in person it is pretty different.  So many of the holes look the same from the tee. There is mounding on the sides to hide the other holes.  The shots into the greens are pretty nice though.

[John Kavanaugh]

Just as I am trying to defend the place they post a stimp reading of 12.6.  I guess the course is what my son would call a "Try Hard". 

[Lou_Duran]

I am reading Jackie Burke, Jr.'s book and he notes that when the pros don't like a golf course, it is because of one or two holes that can result in large numbers.  He cites TPC Sawgrass #17 as such a hole.  What are the holes at LN that the players don't like?

[Greg Tallman]

Why can't we admit that the course looks pretty damn good? 

Does it? Looks like hole after hole of artificial mounding for separation purposes.

[John Kavanaugh]

Why can't we admit that the course looks pretty damn good? 

Does it? Looks like hole after hole of artificial mounding for separation purposes.

I find it funny on a course where the views are the selling point the look off the tee is the biggest complaint.  The entire course is artificial, not just the mounds.  Perhaps some of the mounds are used to direct your eye both towards and away from the industrial complex.  If there ever was a course where nature is not for nature's sake this would be it.

I'm seeing a ton of options off the tee, interesting approaches using backstops and side slopes and interesting recovery shots hole after hole.  As the course firms over the weekend this will prove to be an interesting venue at a great location.  A perfect venue for the PGA Championship.

[Jud_T]

None of my Wall Street buddies hold this course in high regard.  Of course it's no longer fashionable to have Wall Street buddies...

[Greg Tallman]

Why can't we admit that the course looks pretty damn good?  

Does it? Looks like hole after hole of artificial mounding for separation purposes.

I find it funny on a course where the views are the selling point the look off the tee is the biggest complaint.  The entire course is artificial, not just the mounds.  Perhaps some of the mounds are used to direct your eye both towards and away from the industrial complex.  If there ever was a course where nature is not for nature's sake this would be it.

I'm seeing a ton of options off the tee, interesting approaches using backstops and side slopes and interesting recovery shots hole after hole.  As the course firms over the weekend this will prove to be an interesting venue at a great location.  A perfect venue for the PGA Championship.

I thought you were arguing that the course has architectural merit?

[John Kavanaugh]

None of my Wall Street buddies hold this course in high regard.  Of course it's no longer fashionable to have Wall Street buddies...

That is an excellent point.  I could see a reporter stalking tee sheets looking for a story.  Always better to do your "playing" out of town.

[John Kavanaugh]

Shortest championship rough ever on a poorly designed course?

[Bill Brightly]

John,

For the "young turk" you reference (which implies writing the check is not an issue), there are so many better options West (NJ), North (Westchester/CT) or East (Long Island.) Especially to have that drink. Bling wears thin. Classic beauty endures.

[John Kavanaugh]

It is shaping up to be a great tournament with short rough. This could be a turning point many have called for and is being ignored.

[Billsteele]

This topic is interesting because last night my 17 year old son, who has played a decent amount of golf and has been exposed to some good golf courses, was watching highlights from the Barclays and said, "That is one golf course that I really would like to play." When I asked him why, he said it just seems "cool" with the views of the Manhattan skyline. That may be part of the rub. The setting defines the golf course much more than the architecture. If the idea of hosting the Barclays is to tease prospective members with the endless shots of NYC, maybe it works.

By the way, as far as JakaB shedding "light on some of the darkest truths of the human condition," I thought he was the darkest truth of the human condition.

[Bill_McBride]

This topic is interesting because last night my 17 year old son, who has played a decent amount of golf and has been exposed to some good golf courses, was watching highlights from the Barclays and said, "That is one golf course that I really would like to play." When I asked him why, he said it just seems "cool" with the views of the Manhattan skyline. That may be part of the rub. The setting defines the golf course much more than the architecture. If the idea of hosting the Barclays is to tease prospective members with the endless shots of NYC, maybe it works.

By the way, as far as JakaB shedding "light on some of the darkest truths of the human condition," I thought he was the darkest truth of the human condition.

For those old enough to remember the Reader's Digest, there was a regular feature called "The Perfect Squelch."   Ouch!

[Mike Sweeney]

This topic is interesting because last night my 17 year old son, who has played a decent amount of golf and has been exposed to some good golf courses, was watching highlights from the Barclays and said, "That is one golf course that I really would like to play." When I asked him why, he said it just seems "cool" with the views of the Manhattan skyline. That may be part of the rub. The setting defines the golf course much more than the architecture. If the idea of hosting the Barclays is to tease prospective members with the endless shots of NYC, maybe it works.

By the way, as far as JakaB shedding "light on some of the darkest truths of the human condition," I thought he was the darkest truth of the human condition.

1. I am interested in playing Liberty National after watching today. I am sure that I won't love it but surely I need to play it once after seeing the NBC camera angles. I am serious.

2. Jaka is not dark, just confused.