[Andrew Carr]

SPDB,

I was referencing Piping Rock, not The Creek.

I'm fairly certain, that the look from the left side of the 5th fairway presents a skyline green, save for one backround tree.

Hopefully, a ground level photo can clear this up and even the bet, or put me down two dinners.

Pat,


I share your opinion that the 5th at Creek is a skyline green and I wonder if the tennis courts were added after the courses completion.  None of the members I know are that interested in the history or architecture to the extent that this crew is, so all I've received is crickets...


I don't see a ground level photo posted on this thread and I'm wondering the outcome of this bet from so many years ago.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dean,

That's a fantastic aerial.

Look at that bunkering !

And,  that green has to have one of the steepest second or back plateaus that I've ever seen.
Surrounding that green with a moat like arrangement of bunkers had to make that hole of the great holes of it's time.

[Ronald Montesano]

I love the openness of the drive, but I'm not a fan of the placement of the large, right-side fairway bunker just beyond the farthest bunker on the diagonal. Rather than eliminate the crossing hazard, I would have like to see the movement of that right-side fairway bunker up the fairway about 50-60 yards. This would have offered a landing area for the second shot for the medium hitter. Too penal, especially for slicers (most of us!)

[SPDB]

SPDB,

I was referencing Piping Rock, not The Creek.

I'm fairly certain, that the look from the left side of the 5th fairway presents a skyline green, save for one backround tree.

Hopefully, a ground level photo can clear this up and even the bet, or put me down two dinners.

Pat,


I share your opinion that the 5th at Creek is a skyline green and I wonder if the tennis courts were added after the courses completion.  None of the members I know are that interested in the history or architecture to the extent that this crew is, so all I've received is crickets...


I don't see a ground level photo posted on this thread and I'm wondering the outcome of this bet from so many years ago.

Pat -


Is Andrew your alter ego? Agent? Are you still trying to weasel out of this bet after so much time has passed? "The 5th at The Creek Skyline Green Bet" was done and dusted years ago (notwithstanding your efforts to recharacterize the bet as what was intended by MacDonald). The same is true of the absence of yardage on sprinkler heads at Merion. Its time to pay off these bets (plus, its a good excuse to catch up after so many years).


The 5th green at The Creek is not a skyline green (although, with tree clearing, it would be a very good one). Below are some ground level photos that illustrate this fact.

[SPDB]

Anybody else find it amusing that there are 2 threads on the first page of the DG, initiated by Pat 13 years apart and about different holes/courses, but with the following subject lines:


"Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf"


"Is the 6th hole at"

[Andrew Carr]

I understand that it isn't currently a skyline green, but I wonder when those tennis courts were added and if at some point in history, the 5th at Creek was a skyline green.  Does anyone on a golf site know when a tennis court was built?  (I'm aware of how silly that sounds.)


The trees that are preventing the skyline green don't appear to be very old to me, but I am certainly far from a tree expert.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPBD,


I'd be happy to pay off on the Merion bet and at the same time further discuss The Creek bet.


Pick some dates and your restaurant of choice.


Maybe we'll invite others, but your tab is on me.

[Joe Bausch]

     From The Lurker:
 
Andrew Carracino:

            In response to your questions on the Creek Club:

1. Was the original green a "skyline," and,
2. When were the tennis courts built, I can offer you the following.

            The 5th green did not look to have ever been a real "skyline" and apparently less so originally than it is today.* The land Creek Club was built on was previously the estate of prominent New York lawyer Paul D. Cravath. His large estate was known as Veraton. The original mansion burned in 1909; he rebuilt it in 1911 and it burned again in 1914 (both mansions were sited squarely at the end of the long tree lined drive that is the club's front entrance). In 1921 Creek Club was initially organized and the course opened in Sept. 1923.

            The tennis courts were built and/or opened in 1927 (3-4 years after the course opened) in a formal garden of Veraton that was sited in line with the mansion and the stables on the other side that created a formal landscape design in the shape of the top of a "T" with the drive being the bottom of the "T."

*We have an early on-ground photo taken very near the green; and we also have a very low aerial from app. 1927-28 of the 5th green and the first two tennis courts. There are a number of trees behind and on both sides. We also have Macdonald/Raynor's original blueprint. Additionally, on the 5th hole, a few years after the course opened, Macdonald recommended a "Principle's Nose" bunker be installed in the middle of the 5th fairway. It was never done although I wish it had been or even that they would do it today.
 

[Joe Bausch]

And a little more from TL:


     Andrew C:


            I should add that in the first 5-6 years of Creek Club the road to the beach club did not go behind the 5th green and all the way down along the west side of the property, as it does today. Initially it went in the other entrance and along what is today the service road and down the east side of the property where it eventually went across the golf course and connected with what is labeled on the blueprint as "an old path" on the west side of the property (probably around the 8th green). The cost of that new road to the beach club was quite expensive for that day and age (estimated at $27,000+ and ended up a bit more). Kindly, J.P Morgan Jr and another prominent member sprang for that. It seems to me that the original founders of Creek Club were a bunch of the biggest and most powerful "Captains of Industry and the Universe" of any golf club in American history!

            And then there was the on-going problem of the so-called "lower" or "water" holes, particularly #12, #13 and #14 (apparently those three holes were in such constant poor condition it had effectively turned the course into 12 holes). They were basically in a tidal marsh and salinizing, constantly preventing good turf. That fix required about $100,000 in 1928 and that is when Flynn got involved. That problem came to a head at a board meeting at The Links Club in October 1926. In that meeting a club governor by the name of Herbert H. Dean and original governor (and apparently the president of Creek Club's holding corporation, Kellenworth Corp), Charles B. Macdonald, clearly butted heads on the nature of the cause of the problems of those "lower holes" and the nature of the fix. Herbert Dean got his way at that board meeting, and shortly thereafter Macdonald resigned from the club; his nominal reason was he was going to Bermuda for an extended time to write his book. In January 1927 the club broke the ice by passing a resolution offering Macdonald an honorary membership. Interestingly, in his book, Macdonald barely mentioned Creek Club.


Happy New Year----Ask any time and you shall receive---probably including a bunch of trifles you never asked about---TEP
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

At one time, that tree had to be much smaller, perhaps below the horizon line.
 
At one time, that tree wasn't there.
 
The question is, which predated which, the green or the tree ?
 

[William_G]

No

[Patrick_Mucci]

William G,

How many times have you played Piping Rock ?

[SPDB]

At one time, that tree had to be much smaller, perhaps below the horizon line.
 
At one time, that tree wasn't there.
 
The question is, which predated which, the green or the tree ?
 

Pat - It certainly would be an interesting historical exercise, even though it wouldn't change the outcome of our bet (which related to the skyline nature of the present green). Also, the absence of tree in the distance of this picture that you point may create a skyline effect for the tee shot, but it is the dense stand of trees to the left of that tree, the absence of which would create a skyline effect for the shot to the green.

[Andrew Carr]

And a little more from TL:


     Andrew C:


            I should add that in the first 5-6 years of Creek Club the road to the beach club did not go behind the 5th green and all the way down along the west side of the property, as it does today. Initially it went in the other entrance and along what is today the service road and down the east side of the property where it eventually went across the golf course and connected with what is labeled on the blueprint as "an old path" on the west side of the property (probably around the 8th green). The cost of that new road to the beach club was quite expensive for that day and age (estimated at $27,000+ and ended up a bit more). Kindly, J.P Morgan Jr and another prominent member sprang for that. It seems to me that the original founders of Creek Club were a bunch of the biggest and most powerful "Captains of Industry and the Universe" of any golf club in American history!

            And then there was the on-going problem of the so-called "lower" or "water" holes, particularly #12, #13 and #14 (apparently those three holes were in such constant poor condition it had effectively turned the course into 12 holes). They were basically in a tidal marsh and salinizing, constantly preventing good turf. That fix required about $100,000 in 1928 and that is when Flynn got involved. That problem came to a head at a board meeting at The Links Club in October 1926. In that meeting a club governor by the name of Herbert H. Dean and original governor (and apparently the president of Creek Club's holding corporation, Kellenworth Corp), Charles B. Macdonald, clearly butted heads on the nature of the cause of the problems of those "lower holes" and the nature of the fix. Herbert Dean got his way at that board meeting, and shortly thereafter Macdonald resigned from the club; his nominal reason was he was going to Bermuda for an extended time to write his book. In January 1927 the club broke the ice by passing a resolution offering Macdonald an honorary membership. Interestingly, in his book, Macdonald barely mentioned Creek Club.


Happy New Year----Ask any time and you shall receive---probably including a bunch of trifles you never asked about---TEP

This is brilliant!  Thank you so much for taking the time to explain that.  I assume the old path you speak of is loosely over the cart path the runs between the 7th and 12th greens.  And presumably the present day service road ran through what is now the practice tee and behind the cemetery down the eastern portion of the property.


This whole exercise had me thinking about all these wonderful pieces of information.  Is something in the works to create a proper history of each of these wonderful facilities we discuss here and chronicle them on a hole-by-hole basis?  That would be substantially more organized than all these pearls discussed throughout various threads.  Maybe some of these clubs, which have Historians, can organize this material into their written histories?  I'm a sucker for organization...

[William_G]

William G,

How many times have you played Piping Rock ?

you know the answer

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