David Fay and possibly the dumbest assessment of a golf course ever

[Dan_Callahan]

Having played at The Country Club earlier this summer and then walked the composite course at the US Am on Monday, I found myself wondering how David Fay could possibly say: "I like The Country Club, but I think the composite course is the most overrated of America’s great courses, if that makes any sense."

No, David, it doesn't make any sense. The composite course is absolutely brilliant. It's as natural a course as any I've seen. It is tough but fair. The fairways are, for the most part, huge, but the rough is brutal and the greens are tiny. It's a course that rewards the person who is playing well and absolutely demolishes someone who isn't. It's amazing to me that a course as old as TCC has holes on it that are unlike those on any other course (especially #3). It's hard to think of a design that makes better use of it's natural features such as hills and rock outcroppings. And the recent tree clearing has only made the course better.

For Fay to make that statement, I've got to believe there was more going on ... some stick up his ass as a result of his interactions with TCC members or something. Otherwise, I can't imagine anyone who knows anything about golf visiting TCC and walking away with the impression that it is overrated.

[PCCraig]

Dan,

I wholeheartedly agree. Well said.

[Sean_A]

For Fay to make that statement, I've got to believe there was more going on ... some stick up his ass as a result of his interactions with TCC members or something. Otherwise, I can't imagine anyone who knows anything about golf visiting TCC and walking away with the impression that it is overrated.

Or, Fay simply has a different opinion to yours.

Ciao

[Jason Thurman]

He does call it one of America's great courses, to be fair. One of them has to be the most overrated doesn't it?

Of course, seeing as how his organization just brought a major to Oak Hill, it certainly calls his taste into question. But it's like when I had a colleague yesterday raving about how delicious Pizza Hut is. Am I a better person simply because I prefer the hole-in-the-wall around the corner from my house and wouldn't eat Pizza Hut for free? Yes, I am. But it's not like I should brag about it.

[Brad Tufts]

I think the whole setup is unique, but I do think the "Composite" is overrated as a routing.  It has all the great holes, but the member's routing is more fun and way less contrived.  The combo hole (#11 on the Composite), for instance, has the worst tee shot on the property with overhanging trees, etc.

They even took the members' #10 and made it much better with all the recent work.

Regardless, the whole thing is clearly one of the country's greatest, at the very least.  I may be attempting to split hairs.

[Dan_Callahan]

Jason,

No, I don't think one of them necessarily has to be overrated. I think it's possible that all of the world's top courses are rated exactly where they should be, with room for individual opinions to debate whether Pine Valley is better than Cypress, Augusta is better than NGLA, etc. In my opinion, Kittansett is better than many of the courses in the top 75 GolfWeek courses. I'm sure other people take issue with other course placements. But to single out TCC as THE MOST OVERRATED seems to me to flow from someone who has an ax to grind. Just an observation.

Brad,

This was the first time I'd ever seen the composite setup for competition. I loved it, and it didn't feel at all contrived. I agree that #11 would be helped by some tree clearing. On the other hand, as it is the hole is basically the only one on the course that demands a draw. I might be missing one, but 17 is better with a draw but can easily be played with a fade. 18 is a dogleg left but tons of room to work the ball either way. Same with 1.

And I expected 11 to look ridiculous playing over one green on the Primrose to another. But you wouldn't even notice there was another green there if you didn't know. It was all mowed to fairway hight. In fact, a guy I was walking with didn't see it until I pointed it out. And the 14th on the composite is a crazy and very cool par 5. Not sure I've ever seen a landing area on the 2nd shot like that. I do think it's too bad 9 tee (on the composite) couldn't be pushed back a little so the hole could be played as a par 5. It's a great par 5 and a brutal par 4 (I know ... par is all relative, but still ...).

[David Kelly]

I've seen dozens of dumber assessments of golf courses just on this website.

[Dan_Callahan]

True. I guess I should have put in the subject: "David Fay and possibly the dumbest assessment of a golf course made by someone in a position of influence"

[Garland Bayley]

I've seen dozens of dumber assessments of golf courses just on this website.

Ahhhhhhhh! The good old days of Matt Ward.

[JLahrman]

He does call it one of America's great courses, to be fair. One of them has to be the most overrated doesn't it?

Of course, seeing as how his organization just brought a major to Oak Hill, it certainly calls his taste into question. But it's like when I had a colleague yesterday raving about how delicious Pizza Hut is. Am I a better person simply because I prefer the hole-in-the-wall around the corner from my house and wouldn't eat Pizza Hut for free? Yes, I am. But it's not like I should brag about it.

I agree except that even though I think Pizza Hut is terrible, I'm not going to turn down free pizza.

[Brad Tufts]

Hi Dan,

I see your points.  None of the added Primrose holes are terrible, even the combo hole.

After playing both configurations, I just thought it felt forced compared to the regular layout (which has one weird/bad hole, members' #9).  Admittedly they felt at some point that they needed to cobble together a routing that was more challenging, so they did well with what they have.  In the Mass. Amateur in 2009, we played one day of the members' course, and one day of the composite in the stroke play portion.  I shot 72M, 74C (playing about 7000 par 71) and made match play only to lose my first match.  All the Composite holes played as they originally did before the recent changes, #12C was a 475y uphill par four.  I think the scoring average was about 2.5 shots higher on the Composite.

I think for most guys on here, the members' layout would be favored.  More quirky, more playable, and historical!

The Composite has some novelty to play, but the Members' course is plenty interesting and GREAT in its own right.

[Carl Johnson]

Here is what David Fay also said in the same interview article (Boston Globe):

“Maybe someday The Country Club will come up with a new composite layout. I hope so, because it would be fun for the Open to return to New England. Remember this: When it comes to selecting US Open sites, the importance of having a prominent USGA insider as a strong advocate can’t be overstated. It can be the staff leader, or it can be a volunteer member of the executive committee.
 
“But the advocates have to be persuasive and committed. The Country Club had no strong USGA insiders as advocates at decision time in 2006. If there had been, I believe the Open would be in Brookline this year.”

So, isn't this the real point - the truth about why TCC didn't get the US Open this year?  It's about USGA insider politics, and TCC had no insiders (per Fay).

[Brad Tufts]

Carl,

This was the same quote in the Golf Magazine (or GD) article with Fay about the reason the Open didn't come to TCC.

It seems like there is some regret that they did not push harder, but there were some hurdles.  The biggest one that has always been cited is the loss of much of the Primrose for a year after being covered with tents, etc.  I also don't think using Brookline GC next door (the former Putterham) as parking is an option any longer either.

These things could have been overcome, but there was not a point person in place that was going to get it all done.

[Jason Thurman]

Yep, I got David Fay confused with Tim Finchem earlier. Oops.

Either way, there's no chastising someone for poor taste in my book.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Yep, I got David Fay confused with Tim Finchem earlier. Oops.

Jason, did you get Tim Finchem confused with Ted Bishop?   

[Jud_T]

Haven't set foot on the property, but I certainly respect his right to voice an opinion contrary to the status quo.  Hell even here many are afraid or chastised for questioning the accepted doctrine.  Here's a question from the cheap seats; if it weren't one of the 5 charter members of the USGA located in a tony Boston burb, hadn't been the sight of Ouimet's groundbreaking upset or the greatest comeback in Ryder Cup history, would the course's ranking be any different based solely on it's merits?

[Mark Chaplin]

TCC is definitely a very good course but I'm not sure it's world top 100, the course does use the contours of the land really well. It is a world top 25 experience though if you have a full day including Fernandos in the gents locker room and dinner in one of the restaurants or private dining rooms.

[Tim Martin]

It seems odd that Fay would take a shot at a course that he had a hand in selecting while the Executive Director of the USGA.

[Dan_Callahan]

Did the OP refer to the fairways as "huge"?? What??? Obviously those miniscule landing strips flanked by deep rough have been widened since I played there.

Miniscule landing strips? When did you play there? Merion at the US Open had landing strips. TCC fairways look like football fields in comparison. Maybe the way the course is maintained has changed recently? I don't know, I first played it two years ago, which was after all the tree clearing.

I'd be happy to go through hole by hole and assess each fairway, but the only one that I think is tough to hit is 3. But on that one, the smart play is to lay back and to the left, so you're hitting less than driver off the tee. Because of the elevation change, and knowing how tough the 2nd shot is, that is admittedly a butt-clenching tee shot.

There are others that only reveal miniscule landing strips from the tee, but when you get out there you realize the fairways are pretty wide (4, 11 and 13 are like that and in some ways remind me of what Mike Strantz tries to do with visual intimidation).

The rough at TCC is thick and nasty, but it isn't hard to avoid. It's the thick, nasty rough around the miniscule greens that typically has the more negative impact on my score.

I've never had my opinion about a course change as much as it has with TCC after actually playing it. Before I saw it, I had only heard about how impossible it was. I expected boring, tight, penal, etc. By the time I reached the 4th tee, my opinion had done a 180 and I was starting to think it might be the best course I had ever played. I also wasn't prepared for just how beautiful it is, the textures framing fairways and greens, the use of natural landforms, and the variety of holes.

[Brad Tufts]

I agree with Dan on that one too...TCC is not particularly narrow when set up for normal play.

I really don't understand those that dismiss TCC as overrated.  The development of this club and course is likely America's most important.  The history aspect cannot be dismissed, especially considering it is still relevant today.

Ballyneal is great and underrated for its linksy inspiration and use of the terrain, etc., but literally every private golf club in the US has been made possible by the model started by TCC, and its still one of a handful of the best classic parkland golf courses in our country close to 100 years after the last hole of 27 was built.

I dare anyone to find a course with better variety....both short and long par threes, short and long par fours, and engaging par fives....doglegs in both directions, well placed hazards...and routing options to create a worthy challenge to anyone.  

Also, even though modifications have been made for the modern game to be played at TCC, the old-timey angles have been well-preserved, and are still found throughout....the odd uphill approach to the tucked 2nd green, the wild 3rd fairway, the tiny 4th green, the elegant slow dogleg at #5, the strangely angled tabletop green from the 19th century at #7....it goes on and on!

I ask TCC's detractors to tell us how its overrated!

[Patrick_Mucci]

I've long maintained that the composite course is gerrymandered beyond reason or.......Joan Rivers, take your choice.

It is so contrived that it has no place amongst courses in their original/normal/natural form.

Changing par 4's to par 3's, skipping holes on several occassions, combining a par 4 and a par 3 to form a long par 4 is like looking at circus characters, from a distance they look OK, but upon closer inspection, they're grotesque.

I'm with David Fay on this one.

And I wonder, how many defending the composite course have ever played TCC ?

[Sam Morrow]

So is it wrong now to voice a dissenting opinion?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad,

It's a mongrelized course, certainly not a pure bred

[Mark Chaplin]

Pat that it maybe but TCC doesn't work for tournament golf in its normal set up.

Royal Liverpool had serious high level support from within and on R&A committee to get it back in the rota.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat that it maybe but TCC doesn't work for tournament golf in its normal set up.

Mark,

Why not?

I've played in tournaments there and the course was fine in it's normal set-up.

Or, are you saying that it's not a sufficient test for the best golfers in the world, amateur and Pro ?



Royal Liverpool had serious high level support from within and on R&A committee to get it back in the rota.