Is This An Indication That Trump Really Gets Links Golf?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Jon,

I just find the "black is black, white is white and my opinion is already made up despite any further information" approach to be a little tiresome... I gave some info that I thought might prove useful...

Caspar was Martin's main associate on the project, as he was on many other Hawtree projects (especially links courses) through the years. Like any other big name design firm, associates do a lot of the work...

I have no association with the project other than trying to give a reasoned view.

Ally

[Mark Pearce]

He was right about one thing, the cart paths are lovely.

Niall

Please, please tell me this was intended as sarcasm. I fear not.

Whatever your view on the course, when on Earth did we sink to even entering into discussion about the apparently appealing uniformity of buggy tracks on a supposedly natural golf course?

With discussion limited to 1,200 people around here the air is valuable.....

So why waste it with an idiotic post that would have been avoided by even reading one of Niall's previous posts concerning Trump International?

[Paul Gray]

He was right about one thing, the cart paths are lovely.

Niall

Please, please tell me this was intended as sarcasm. I fear not.

Whatever your view on the course, when on Earth did we sink to even entering into discussion about the apparently appealing uniformity of buggy tracks on a supposedly natural golf course?

With discussion limited to 1,200 people around here the air is valuable.....

Ah yes, I remember when I was a young pup round here. Chastising my elders and generally being a pain in the arse. Not much has changed mind you.

Now young Paul, if you venture into the back pages of this discussion board you will find many a comment from me on all things Balmedie International where I not only talk about the disgraceful behaviour of Scottish politicians but also the merits or otherwise of the course, which not only have I played but I also saw the site prior to construction. Those that participated on those threads, and indeed the many on here that I've had the privilege of playing golf with will know that the above quote from me, which was intended to be humorous rather than sarcastic by the way, was merely shorthand for views already expressed.

Here endith the lesson.

Niall

Lesson? Please. I'm afraid that simply won't work. I'm simply too stupid to learn. Couple that with my self indulgent god complex and I'm pretty much a lost cause.

Nonetheless, I sincerely apologise for any misrepresentation/interpretation on my part.

You'll know from reading the threads you make reference to that Trump has a hitherto unparalleled capacity to make my blood boil, therein making this otherwise arguably well balanced individual (delusion moments not withstanding) into a borderline psychopath.

Again, I apologise.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

GCA.com thread = Donald Trump

GCA.com replies = WHINING

 

[Niall C]

Paul

Please don't apologise, it sets a bad example.

Have you been upto Balmedie yet or are you boycotting it ? Interested to get another "local's" perspective. BTW, where you from/based etc ?

Niall

[Paul Gray]

Paul

Please don't apologise, it sets a bad example.

Have you been upto Balmedie yet or are you boycotting it ? Interested to get another "local's" perspective. BTW, where you from/based etc ?

Niall

Niall,

I've not been to Balmedie. I'm very much in the boycotting camp, regardless of whether it happens to be a wonderful course or not. I'm afraid even if Trump added the World's largest water fountain, undeniably classy though I'm sure it would be, it wouldn't be enough to change my mind. I guess I'll have to continue to look from afar, envious that I can't afford some of that inner peace that Donny has so successfully paid out for.

I'm from the south of England, having grown up playing the very naturally robust links course at Hayling. Having spent a few years in London and Manchester I'm now back down by the coast.

[SL_Solow]

How many of those commenting have played the course?  I will be there as part of a whirlwind visit to that area in about a month and intend to give it an open minded assessment after playing.  I have had tangential dealings with the Trump organization in areas outside of golf and I am not a fan.  I suspect that does not faze Mr. trump at all.  but more importantly, I intend to do my best to put aside any preconceived notions andto try and evaluate the course on its own merits

[Niall C]

Paul

Not a problem, I can understand why some wouldn't want to play it. I don't think that stops you making comment on what you've seen in photos, and to be honest I've tended to agree a bit more with the comment of those that have only seen photos as opposed to some (only some mind you) who have played it but seem to have swallowed the PR whole.

As an aside, Hayling is a Tom Simpson if I remember rightly, and I believe that Frank Pont pitched for a renovation/redesign job there recently that went to soemone else. Any news ?

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul

Not a problem, I can understand why some wouldn't want to play it. I don't think that stops you making comment on what you've seen in photos, and to be honest I've tended to agree a bit more with the comment of those that have only seen photos as opposed to some (only some mind you) who have played it but seem to have swallowed the PR whole.

Niall,

Why do you categorize those who have played the course and praised it, as having "swallowed the PR" ?

Isn't that a reflection of your bias ?

Is it possible, that those who have played the course, independent of each other and independent of any PR, judged the course to have more than ample merit ?

Why must they, in your opinion, all be puppets of the PR and not independent thinkers ?

[Sean_A]

I may be wrong about myself, but I don't think I fell for any Trump PR.  In fact, most of the PR concerning the project was rather negative and I wasn't thrilled with Trump's efforts.  No matter, I still think the course is great.  However, this project and his words about it don't convince me Trump really gets links golf. 

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Sean,

Would you give it a 7?

[Connor Dougherty]

I am still seriously puzzled why top designers like C&C and Hanse want to work for him.

You're kidding ........... right ?

It surely cannot be the need for jobs or focus on money.


You're kidding ...... right ?

There must be something there that I do not see or understand......

It's obviously Something that Hanse, C & C, Fazio and others see rather clearly.

If those intelligent, talented architects see and understand it, does it need to be explained to others ?

I'm not surprised that Fazio worked with Trump, as their philosophies seem to align a bit more on GCA (think extravagance when it comes to earthwork and waterfalls).

When it comes to hiring C & C and Hanse, I'm going to speculate that the reason Trump went with them is because he is determined to have "The best course in ________." He's going with the trends. Gil has one of the best track records for restoring courses and it should come as no surprise that C & C are looked at given their impressive portfolio of courses, many of which are rated very highly.

The issue of a waterfall on Doral has been made fairly public, with Hanse arguing that the waterfall wouldn't fit with Dick Wilson's design philosophy and Trump arguing that waterfalls are a positive addition to a golf course because they please the golfers who play them. Even if Gil wins the battle, will Trump make alterations to the track as he sees fit? Similarly, what if C & C have their work altered or severely handcuffed by a man determined to get his way?

I don't know, the wealth of knowledge that Trump has on architecture. Who knows if he truly understands the genius (or what once was) the genius of St. Andrews and why it is being rated higher than his new course, or why his elevated tees at his course in Aberdeen may be viewed as a negative rather than a positive. Donald Trump seems like a one-man greens committee, determined to make his golf course the best in existence and willing to spend copious amounts of money to do so, without realizing that a great golf course will be more than fine.

This is all speculation based on what I've seen and heard. Feel free to poke holes in my argument and correct me where I'm wrong.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Would you give it a 7?

Jud

Yes, I think TI falls in that sort of class and 7 is the number I would give.  Though if folks are really turned on by views I can understand an 8, the same score for Turnberry, but I think TI will turn out to be a better course.

Ciao

[Paul Gray]

Paul

Not a problem, I can understand why some wouldn't want to play it. I don't think that stops you making comment on what you've seen in photos, and to be honest I've tended to agree a bit more with the comment of those that have only seen photos as opposed to some (only some mind you) who have played it but seem to have swallowed the PR whole.

As an aside, Hayling is a Tom Simpson if I remember rightly, and I believe that Frank Pont pitched for a renovation/redesign job there recently that went to soemone else. Any news ?

Niall

The renovation, as far as I'm aware, is more of an ongoing project whereby bits and pieces are just being tweaked. I'm not aware of any major work being done, although those carrying out the work might view it differently!

I'm hoping to play it in the next couple of weeks but, at the last time of visiting, the most noticeable work was the removal of a few bunkers. I wasn't personally too impressed if I'm honest. They were traps which wouldn't generally be in play for the better player nowadays but, nonetheless, they altered perspective well.

And yes, although no one architect was responsible for Hayling, Tom Simpson is widely regarded as having created the modern layout.      

[Niall C]

Thanks Paul, from what I recall of what Frank was proposing they were looking at a partial rerouting of at least a couple of the holes. Perhaps they moved away from that idea.

Niall

[Niall C]

Paul

Not a problem, I can understand why some wouldn't want to play it. I don't think that stops you making comment on what you've seen in photos, and to be honest I've tended to agree a bit more with the comment of those that have only seen photos as opposed to some (only some mind you) who have played it but seem to have swallowed the PR whole.

Niall,

Why do you categorize those who have played the course and praised it, as having "swallowed the PR" ?

Isn't that a reflection of your bias ?

Is it possible, that those who have played the course, independent of each other and independent of any PR, judged the course to have more than ample merit ?

Why must they, in your opinion, all be puppets of the PR and not independent thinkers ?

Patrick

I was very careful in only saying some of those that have played it seem to have swallowed the PR spin. When I read consistent comments from various sources then what they are saying is actually correct (inwhich case I'm wrong) or they have swallowed a bit of PR that doesn't actually stack up. In this case I was thinking of the pitch about world class scenery.

What Balmedie offers you is panaramic views from some of the tees but most of the time the views are internal to the course because of the size of the dunes. Even where the views are extensive, those views are nice (if you're not facing inland) but hardly even mentionable compared to many of the Moray coast courses, or Dornoch or Brora, or some of the Ayrshire courses with Turnberry being the obvious example. That's before you consider courses outwith Scotland. So when someone says the course has world class views, they either don't get out much or they have likely enjoyed a nice complementary round of golf.

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thanks Paul, from what I recall of what Frank was proposing they were looking at a partial rerouting of at least a couple of the holes. Perhaps they moved away from that idea.

Niall

Niall,

Hayling never were with that idea.... Frank very graciously shared his plans with the group (great exercise for all to see) but Hayling hired another architect.

So just to be accurate, they didn't move away from Frank's idea. That may seem pedantic but I think it's important.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm not surprised that Fazio worked with Trump, as their philosophies seem to align a bit more on GCA (think extravagance when it comes to earthwork and waterfalls).

Connor (aka Swiss Cheese)

What are Fazio and Trumps design philosophies ?

When it comes to hiring C & C and Hanse, I'm going to speculate that the reason Trump went with them is because he is determined to have "The best course in ________." He's going with the trends. Gil has one of the best track records for restoring courses and it should come as no surprise that C & C are looked at given their impressive portfolio of courses, many of which are rated very highly.

C&C are hardly "trendy" architects.
They are pretty well established.   Ditto for Gil, although the award of the Olympic course put him on some radar screens long after others were aware of his talents/projects

The issue of a waterfall on Doral has been made fairly public, with Hanse arguing that the waterfall wouldn't fit with Dick Wilson's design philosophy and Trump arguing that waterfalls are a positive addition to a golf course because they please the golfers who play them. Even if Gil wins the battle, will Trump make alterations to the track as he sees fit? Similarly, what if C & C have their work altered or severely handcuffed by a man determined to get his way?

Do you think Trump is different from any modern day developer in terms of control and the ability to alter a course subsequent to opening ?

How did he alter Hawtree's design in Scotland.

As to your "as he sees fit" comment, could you cite where he's done that on his other courses ?

I don't know, the wealth of knowledge that Trump has on architecture.

It's significant.
He's a very bright guy who loves golf.
The question you should ask isn't about his knowledge, but rather his taste and the product he perceives that his clientele clamor for.

Who knows if he truly understands the genius (or what once was) the genius of St. Andrews and why it is being rated higher than his new course, or why his elevated tees at his course in Aberdeen may be viewed as a negative rather than a positive.

He understands plenty, he just may not agree with you for a number of reasons, not all relate to GCA

Donald Trump seems like a one-man greens committee, determined to make his golf course the best in existence and willing to spend copious amounts of money to do so, without realizing that a great golf course will be more than fine.

If you don't strive for excellence, why strive at all ?

Don't sell the "Donald" short, he's very bright and he absolutely loves golf

This is all speculation based on what I've seen and heard.

Seen and heard from whom ?

He's certainly not perfect.   Which one of us is ?   But, he's been good for golf, and continues to be good for golf despite what the whiners say.

Feel free to poke holes in my argument and correct me where I'm wrong.

I thought that nick naming you "Swiss Cheese" was sufficient

[Jud_T]

It's very astute of him to hire the likes of C&C and Gil, and to do whatever it took to get them to agree.  It will put the prejudices of people like myself severely to the test.  

[Niall C]

Ally

Thanks for that. Noted.

Niall

[Connor Dougherty]

I'm not surprised that Fazio worked with Trump, as their philosophies seem to align a bit more on GCA (think extravagance when it comes to earthwork and waterfalls).

Connor (aka Swiss Cheese)

What are Fazio and Trumps design philosophies ?

Fazio and Trump both are willing to spend more money on designs and do more earthwork to build golf courses. They also put high premiums on the appearance of a golf course and sightlines, aka the Framing school of architecture

When it comes to hiring C & C and Hanse, I'm going to speculate that the reason Trump went with them is because he is determined to have "The best course in ________." He's going with the trends. Gil has one of the best track records for restoring courses and it should come as no surprise that C & C are looked at given their impressive portfolio of courses, many of which are rated very highly.

C&C are hardly "trendy" architects.
They are pretty well established.   Ditto for Gil, although the award of the Olympic course put him on some radar screens long after others were aware of his talents/projects

I didn't say that they were "trendy" architects, merely that their style of design is the most popular at the moment. Fazio is a very well established architect but his style of work seems to be a lot less popular than it was 25 years ago.

The issue of a waterfall on Doral has been made fairly public, with Hanse arguing that the waterfall wouldn't fit with Dick Wilson's design philosophy and Trump arguing that waterfalls are a positive addition to a golf course because they please the golfers who play them. Even if Gil wins the battle, will Trump make alterations to the track as he sees fit? Similarly, what if C & C have their work altered or severely handcuffed by a man determined to get his way?

Do you think Trump is different from any modern day developer in terms of control and the ability to alter a course subsequent to opening ?

How did he alter Hawtree's design in Scotland.

As to your "as he sees fit" comment, could you cite where he's done that on his other courses ?

I'm most familiar with the construction of Ocean Trails/Trump National LA but after he took over, the sand in all of the bunkers was altered, new tees added, the 11th hole turned into a par 3 (used to be a reachable par 4) and the 1st hole completely rebuilt with a 50 ft. waterfall. Three new holes needed to be built, now the 9th, 17th, and 18th. All three have bunker styles uncharacteristic of the other holes, the 17th a waterfall even bigger than the first, and an 18th which hardly fits in with the rest of the course. None of the new holes are characteristic of Pete Dye's work and I doubt he consulted Dye on his work there. He didn't hire Dye to work on that course since he bought it well after it was built, but why alter so much of what is there? He must think that his clientele want it but I question whether they do or not.

I don't know, the wealth of knowledge that Trump has on architecture.

It's significant.
He's a very bright guy who loves golf.
The question you should ask isn't about his knowledge, but rather his taste and the product he perceives that his clientele clamor for.

I have many friends who love golf. But ask them who Seth Raynor, CB MacDonald, AW Tillinghast, George C. Thomas or William Flynn and there are a lot of puzzled faces. Even when some of them have played their courses!

Who knows if he truly understands the genius (or what once was) the genius of St. Andrews and why it is being rated higher than his new course, or why his elevated tees at his course in Aberdeen may be viewed as a negative rather than a positive.

He understands plenty, he just may not agree with you for a number of reasons, not all relate to GCA

Fair enough. I'll take your word for it. My father has for a long time said, "In matters of taste, there is no dispute. Perhaps I should just leave it at that.

Donald Trump seems like a one-man greens committee, determined to make his golf course the best in existence and willing to spend copious amounts of money to do so, without realizing that a great golf course will be more than fine.

If you don't strive for excellence, why strive at all ?

Don't sell the "Donald" short, he's very bright and he absolutely loves golf

Why tweak a golf course when it is already great? Excellence comes in many forms. Rustic Canyon is excellent, why make changes to it striving for the top world ranking when those changes are going to cost a fortune and may end up making the course worse? Perfection doesn't exist, great GCA is about making the best of what you have.

This is all speculation based on what I've seen and heard.

Seen and heard from whom ?

He's certainly not perfect.   Which one of us is ?   But, he's been good for golf, and continues to be good for golf despite what the whiners say.

Seen at his course in LA, heard from his own show and those who have spoken about him on this board, including yourself. But more importantly, how has he been good for golf? I only believe that his work at TIGL in Scotland has been worse for the game, for reasons detailed in our discussion on Ran's thread. I'm merely seeking an argument here, as I have no idea whether he has overall been good or bad for the game.

Feel free to poke holes in my argument and correct me where I'm wrong.

I thought that nick naming you "Swiss Cheese" was sufficient

Hopefully I'm getting a little closer to a solid block of cheddar  

[Paul Gray]

Thanks Paul, from what I recall of what Frank was proposing they were looking at a partial rerouting of at least a couple of the holes. Perhaps they moved away from that idea.

Niall

Niall,

Hayling never were with that idea.... Frank very graciously shared his plans with the group (great exercise for all to see) but Hayling hired another architect.

So just to be accurate, they didn't move away from Frank's idea. That may seem pedantic but I think it's important.

Ally,

Many thanks from me too.

I'd be very interested in giving Frank's plans a once over if you happen to know where I might be able to find them?

[Frank Pont]

Paul,

you can find the Hayling post here:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49876.0.html

It gives the full story about what happened and why I posted all of it.

As I understand it not very much has happened in the meantime, other than some minor bunker rebuilds. They are shown on the clubs website (I believe in the greens section reports), you can judge for your self if you think they look like Tom Simpson bunkers.

Also the secretary who played an important role in the events has again moved on, now to Ferndown (before Hayling he was at Liphook).