Is This An Indication That Trump Really Gets Links Golf?

[Sean_A]

It’s set in these giant dunes, but the course is very easy to walk, which is difficult to do in land like this. There are beautiful footpaths that wind through the dunes and they’re surrounded by these incredible high grasses, but you don’t have to go up and down a lot of hills. The purpose of the dunes is to protect you from the weather, so when you’re playing the course, it can feel still even though there are 50 mph winds swirling just above you.

This quote struck me as very bizarre and disconnected from reality!

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Like most of his comments on the Aberdeen project it has nothing to do with what he has done just what he thinks people want to hear.

Jon

[Ronald Montesano]

"You can't teach an old dog old tricks."

Feel free to use this one often when referencing this topic.

[Charlie_Bell]

The dunes exist to protect the coiffe.

[Lou_Duran]

It’s set in these giant dunes, but the course is very easy to walk, which is difficult to do in land like this. There are beautiful footpaths that wind through the dunes and they’re surrounded by these incredible high grasses, but you don’t have to go up and down a lot of hills. The purpose of the dunes is to protect you from the weather, so when you’re playing the course, it can feel still even though there are 50 mph winds swirling just above you.

This quote struck me as very bizarre and disconnected from reality!

Ciao

"The purpose of the dunes is to protect you from the weather"

Only this part struck me as odd, probably a case of his brain running at a different speed than his mouth.  He may have meant to say that one purpose of the design was to use the dunes "to protect you from the weather".  But, of course, everyone here speaks with such clarity and accuracy that we never have problems conflating thoughts incorrectly.

The rest actually resonates with me.  I can think of three world-class golf courses I've played several times which require numerous difficult hikes to tees built on top of dunes.  The architects succeed in creating superior visuals, and the player is certainly more exposed to the elements, but they're all tough walks (and, I suspect, most golfers ride at two of the three).  From what I've read, the Trump course has superior aesthetics and is plenty challenging.  So, if walking the course through the valleys is a bit easier and the fierce winds are somewhat muted, how is this bizarre or disconnected?

[Jud_T]

Sean,

Trump's genius is that he elicits strong emotions, both positive and negative.  What comes out of his pie hole is, for the most part, entirely irrelevant.  It's the fact that you can't ignore him and the Trump brand is forever seared into your noggin.  My suggestion is to pretend you're one of his fellow members at Winged Foot and he's regaling you with a post-round synopsis at the clubhouse bar;  i.e. let it go in one ear and out the other and take an extra-large gulp of your triple neat 30-year old Glenmorangie...

[Adam Lawrence]

It’s set in these giant dunes, but the course is very easy to walk, which is difficult to do in land like this. There are beautiful footpaths that wind through the dunes and they’re surrounded by these incredible high grasses, but you don’t have to go up and down a lot of hills. The purpose of the dunes is to protect you from the weather, so when you’re playing the course, it can feel still even though there are 50 mph winds swirling just above you.

This quote struck me as very bizarre and disconnected from reality!

Ciao

"The purpose of the dunes is to protect you from the weather"

Only this part struck me as odd, probably a case of his brain running at a different speed than his mouth.  He may have meant to say that one purpose of the design was to use the dunes "to protect you from the weather".  But, of course, everyone here speaks with such clarity and accuracy that we never have problems conflating thoughts incorrectly.

The rest actually resonates with me.  I can think of three world-class golf courses I've played several times which require numerous difficult hikes to tees built on top of dunes.  The architects succeed in creating superior visuals, and the player is certainly more exposed to the elements, but they're all tough walks (and, I suspect, most golfers ride at two of the three).  From what I've read, the Trump course has superior aesthetics and is plenty challenging.  So, if walking the course through the valleys is a bit easier and the fierce winds are somewhat muted, how is this bizarre or disconnected?

Because the fairways may mostly be in the valleys, but the tees are not; and in any case you have to move between the valleys to get from hole to hole. The Trump course has many virtues, but easy walking is not one of them. It is among the toughest walks I can think of in the UK.

[Michael Whitaker]

It’s set in these giant dunes, but the course is very easy to walk, which is difficult to do in land like this. There are beautiful footpaths that wind through the dunes and they’re surrounded by these incredible high grasses, but you don’t have to go up and down a lot of hills. The purpose of the dunes is to protect you from the weather, so when you’re playing the course, it can feel still even though there are 50 mph winds swirling just above you.

This quote struck me as very bizarre and disconnected from reality!

Ciao

"The purpose of the dunes is to protect you from the weather"

Only this part struck me as odd, probably a case of his brain running at a different speed than his mouth.  He may have meant to say that one purpose of the design was to use the dunes "to protect you from the weather".  But, of course, everyone here speaks with such clarity and accuracy that we never have problems conflating thoughts incorrectly.

The rest actually resonates with me.  I can think of three world-class golf courses I've played several times which require numerous difficult hikes to tees built on top of dunes.  The architects succeed in creating superior visuals, and the player is certainly more exposed to the elements, but they're all tough walks (and, I suspect, most golfers ride at two of the three).  From what I've read, the Trump course has superior aesthetics and is plenty challenging.  So, if walking the course through the valleys is a bit easier and the fierce winds are somewhat muted, how is this bizarre or disconnected?

Lou - his quote doesn't match with reality as many of the tees are on top of the dunes and totally exposed to the wind, which also requires quite a hike to get up to those tees. It's not the hardest walk I've ever had, but it's tough enough to make someone who is a casual walker cry "Uncle!" Personally, I think the climb up to the highest tees are unnecessary except for the most adventuresome because most of those tees make the holes way too difficult for any but the very best players.

[Lou_Duran]

Thanks for the clarification Adam and Mark.  It would seem that Trump might be careful enough to not misrepresent something that can be easily demonstrated (the difficulty of the walk).  Perhaps the project can succeed with a one-time customer base, though I have to doubt it.  Are carts allowed on the course?  One of the courses I alluded to earlier with tees on top of dunes had an intricate set of winding cart paths which generally got you close to the perched greens and tees.  I don't recall that the paths detracted from the playability or visuals of the course, but it made the riding option too tempting, even for me.

[Niall C]

He was right about one thing, the cart paths are lovely.

Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

He was right about one thing, the cart paths are lovely.

Niall

Niall,

did you notice if the cart paths were fescue or rye?

Jud, you would be correct if it were not for the fact of the trail of destruction that he has left in his wake both within the natural environment and the local population.

Jon

Jon

[Adam Lawrence]

The paths are 100 per cent rye (or rather, they were planted that way) and irrigated with a head every 7m

[Niall C]

Adam,

I recall that the paths were of different grass but the most striking thing was that while they weaved in and out of hillocks or whatever they managed to retain a uniform width. I'd imagine the Romans would have been proud of them.

And also, while the quote was just the Donald shooting from the hip the point Sean's making is right, Trump's missing the point of links golf if he thinks what makes a great course is negating the elements that makes that form of golf so captivating. Its almost an admission that his course really isn't that good after all.

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think he gets it more than some developers...

According to Caspar Grauballe, Trump had a great eye and memory for landforms... So that must mean something

My own opinion is that with the golf course alone, we can at least be thankful that he seems to have more or less given the architect free reign to design as he saw best fit... I'm sure there were certain mandates (high back tees being one) but the course is unmistakably a professionally designed Hawtree golf course with little indication of outside interference...

[Frank Pont]

I am still seriously puzzled why top designers like C&C and Hanse want to work for him. It surely cannot be the need for jobs or focus on money. There must be something there that I do not see or understand......

[Jon Wiggett]

I think he gets it more than some developers...

According to Caspar Grauballe, Trump had a great eye and memory for landforms... So that must mean something

My own opinion is that with the golf course alone, we can at least be thankful that he seems to have more or less given the architect free reign to design as he saw best fit... I'm sure there were certain mandates (high back tees being one) but the course is unmistakably a professionally designed Hawtree golf course with little indication of outside interference...

Ally,

if what you are saying about Hawtree having a free hand then given the site, budget and his links experience the resulting course is somewhat unimaginative and rather disappointing. I would suggest that from a GCA point of view the course is looking more and more like a big chance missed.

As for your quote that supposedly endorses MR. Trump it is hardly from someone who is independent from the Trump organisation nor is it surprising that he likes a course he is claiming to have designed. Funny, I thought Martin Hawtree was the designer but apparently not.

Jon

[Paul Gray]

He was right about one thing, the cart paths are lovely.

Niall

Please, please tell me this was intended as sarcasm. I fear not.

Whatever your view on the course, when on Earth did we sink to even entering into discussion about the apparently appealing uniformity of buggy tracks on a supposedly natural golf course?

With discussion limited to 1,200 people around here the air is valuable.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

I am still seriously puzzled why top designers like C&C and Hanse want to work for him.

You're kidding ........... right ?

It surely cannot be the need for jobs or focus on money.


You're kidding ...... right ?

There must be something there that I do not see or understand......

It's obviously Something that Hanse, C & C, Fazio and others see rather clearly.

If those intelligent, talented architects see and understand it, does it need to be explained to others ?

[Paul Gray]

I am still seriously puzzled why top designers like C&C and Hanse want to work for him.

You're kidding ........... right ?

It surely cannot be the need for jobs or focus on money.


You're kidding ...... right ?

There must be something there that I do not see or understand......

It's obviously Something that Hanse, C & C, Fazio and others see rather clearly.

If those intelligent, talented architects see and understand it, does it need to be explained to others ?

Money talks Frank, money talks.

Pleased to hear such a respected figure as your good self openly distancing yourself from Trump. Stick to your guns.

When the revolution comes.......

[mike_beene]

The guy is a salesman and a very good one.I am pleased he is interested in golf and more pleased that for wharptever reason his views seem to be evolving.i say you can teach an old dog new tricks.

[Niall C]

He was right about one thing, the cart paths are lovely.

Niall

Please, please tell me this was intended as sarcasm. I fear not.

Whatever your view on the course, when on Earth did we sink to even entering into discussion about the apparently appealing uniformity of buggy tracks on a supposedly natural golf course?

With discussion limited to 1,200 people around here the air is valuable.....

Ah yes, I remember when I was a young pup round here. Chastising my elders and generally being a pain in the arse. Not much has changed mind you.

Now young Paul, if you venture into the back pages of this discussion board you will find many a comment from me on all things Balmedie International where I not only talk about the disgraceful behaviour of Scottish politicians but also the merits or otherwise of the course, which not only have I played but I also saw the site prior to construction. Those that participated on those threads, and indeed the many on here that I've had the privilege of playing golf with will know that the above quote from me, which was intended to be humorous rather than sarcastic by the way, was merely shorthand for views already expressed.

Here endith the lesson.

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think he gets it more than some developers...

According to Caspar Grauballe, Trump had a great eye and memory for landforms... So that must mean something

My own opinion is that with the golf course alone, we can at least be thankful that he seems to have more or less given the architect free reign to design as he saw best fit... I'm sure there were certain mandates (high back tees being one) but the course is unmistakably a professionally designed Hawtree golf course with little indication of outside interference...

Ally,

if what you are saying about Hawtree having a free hand then given the site, budget and his links experience the resulting course is somewhat unimaginative and rather disappointing. I would suggest that from a GCA point of view the course is looking more and more like a big chance missed.

As for your quote that supposedly endorses MR. Trump it is hardly from someone who is independent from the Trump organisation nor is it surprising that he likes a course he is claiming to have designed. Funny, I thought Martin Hawtree was the designer but apparently not.

Jon

Hey Jon,

These kind of responses don't help.... I'm not endorsing Mr.Trump nor  am I quoting something from some PR press trip... I only stated the comment because it was an interesting insight coming from a friend close enough and honest enough to know what he's talking about... I am absolutely sure that there is a good portion of truth in what he said - I have no reason to believe otherwise...

As for developer interference, taking the golf course alone it doesn't appear to me (from a distance) that Trump can have demanded any outlandish design requests - they would have been obvious... In which case either he gave the architect a relatively free-hand or his design input wasn't so bad as to have effected the course negatively to any great degree...

There are umpteen cases where architects have to deal with outlandish developer requests on other projects... Think of the generic "water by the eighteenth green" mandate... Given that the same guy usually wants the clubhouse on a high point, I have seen this requirement ruin routings and end up with perfectly good courses having extremely quizzical lakes sitting on top of a hill...

My (rather flimsy admittedly) summary is that Trump was probably a decent client to deal with in pure golf architecture terms - certainly not the worst.

[Jim Colton]

In the same article, he claims that his Pine Hills course is as good as or better than Pine Valley

[Jon Wiggett]

Ally,

I am not interested in getting into a slanging match and it might help if you could enlighten me as to your connection with this project. As to the quote or statement I did not disagree with it but did think that maybe some clarity as to where it came from would have been appropriate. Pointing out such facts does not lessen how genuine they are but does help put in a little bit of context. If this is being unhelpful then well....

I am also sorry I am not more positive about the GCA of the course but having seen the setting, knowing that the GCA had a free hand and good budget the results whilst good still leave me feeling a little deflated.


I am not anti Trump per say but am not a great fan of this particular project or the way it has been undertaken. It is my understanding from other sources (not Mr. Grauballe) that Donald Trump has a quite good understanding of GCA matters. I do not believe I have ever claimed that Trump interfered with the design so suggest you should direct this point somewhere else.


What I pointed out was that the gentleman you were quoting/stating was not an 'independent opinion' on this project. This does not lessen his opinion but does add context as I have already stated. I have never met nor for that matter heard of Caspar Grauballe before you brought up his name but I am sure that he is all you say he is. I also was under the impression that Martin Hawtree was the designer of this course and so was surprised to read on Mr. Grauballe's website that in fact he had designed it on Hawtree's behalf.


I am sorry that you find my responses to be not helpful Ally and am at somewhat of a loss to understand why you should think so. Your last post did not address your reasons.

Jon

[Jud_T]

Grauballe's?  Gotta love the guy's name at least...