[Coral_Ridge]

Historically,  golf courses in large metropolitan areas are highly regarded.  They get the prestigious tournaments and have the influential memberships which spells money.  Now a couple of "improbable" areas are getting "highly regarded" golf courses.  For example,  Sand Hills Golf Club in Nebraska.  Could there be, or might there be, some "h.r." golf courses that the distinguished raters just can't now bring themselves to rate higher even though they love the golf course?  Will it be easier in the future for these raters from GD, Golf Magazine, and Golfweek etc..., to rate highly and really push to have a lesser known golf course get its' due respect.

[Joel_Stewart]

I have to disagree with the premise and Sand Hills, Bandon & Pacific Dunes are examples.  As they say, "if you build it they will come."

Coral Ridge, can you name a top quality course that is out of the way that hasn't been rated?

[RJ_Daley]

Well, I like Coral's notion of using the vernacular of "highly regarded" as a descriptive of a course that has great merit.  Discussing the merits of interesting courses amongst a community of golf course architecture devotees to designate a consensus of feeling that a particular course is highly regarded by many, is a fine notion.  Discussion of why it is highly regarded is best.  However, Coral still uses the term in conjunction of what do "raters" rate in height, and suggest a ranking.  I am completely sick and tired of ratings and rankings in a numerical sense of order, discusion of where in the rankings, whose ratings and rankings, who the raters are, and if A is 3 places better than B.

I prefer to see the concept framed as; lesser known courses rising in recognition for their qualities by more and more folks, than what number in came in this time around in the ratings.  I couldn't give a fiddlers fart if Sand Hills, Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Pebble, ANGC is 1, 2, 3, 10, or 20, and rising...

[A_Clay_Man]

The premise seems flawed that collective thought is systemic in rankings. Geographical restrictions limit the exposure to many a rater and to I'm sure many fine courses. But as stated above, the qualities of a course that draw us enthusiasts 'off the beaten path' are only drawing a small number or percentage of the number of golfers.

I do feel that a change in trend of what constitutes "good or great" can be easily spotted by their upward mobility on the lists, as in the case of Pac Dunes, Wild Horse Sand Hills, et al.

[Coral_Ridge]

A course such as Crystal Downs was until maybe 15 years ago, little known to most golfers.  In the recent Golfweek ratings issue, Lehigh CC was given a higher rating than the Saucon Valley courses which until now always rated higher.  Suddenly Leigh is given the nod.  I wonder why Lehigh didn't get recognition in the past.  It has certainly be around for a long time.  In response to naming a course which is highly regarded and not rated, what prompted me to start this thread is that I am noticing golf courses which are either new and remote, or are older, and they are just now getting talked about.  Talked about on a larger scale anyway.

Maybe all that is needed for the older "lesser known" courses is to be restored to its' original design.  There are some golf courses profiled on GCA which I feel might start to get their due recognition.  For example,  Yeamans Hall Club (highly rated in Golfweek but not the others) or French Lick.

I should point out that what I am describing, I already see happening.  I like the trend.  In a way golf courses are being assessed more accurately than in the past.  We know that rankings will always be subjective, but it can still be judged and measured in many ways.

[TEPaul]

For some unknown reason one course that's still in the lesser known category but should be challenging the likes of Merion and Seminole to get into the top ten remains Fernindina Beach Municipal. It's architecture is just remarkably world class so I think the only thing that could be holding it back at this point is the turtle soup. Basically I don't think the club offers turtle soup which boggles my mind since there sure as hell are enough turtles around the golf course which don't appear to me to be doing anything all that productive right now.

[JohnV]

Since Mr. Paul has returned with a vengence and is telling stories, I have to tell a story now.

A few years ago a group of 4 couples went to Mazatlan Mexico were we played El Cid golf course every day.  The caddies at El Cid were a riot and particularly took to my friend Jim who is an old hippie with hair halfway down his back.  The ponds at El Cid are filled with turtles and frequently you see one turtle at the edge of a pond with another one perched slightly above and behind the first one.  One caddie called Jim over and said, "Chim, the turtles, they f**k"

This quickly became the catch phrase in the group.

6 years later I was working the Futures Tour.  When we were in Dallas the creek that ran through the course also had a fair share of turtles.  So, I told our other officials (Susanne and Karl) the story.  Later when a turtle was spotted on a course, one of us would get on the radio and say "I see Turtles"  and we all would giggle.

When we were just outside Milwaukee later that season, I happened to see a turtle and got on the radio and said, "I see a turtle."  Susanne came back with, "And we all now what turtles do."  At this point, the owner of the tour, a little Costa Rican woman, came on the radio and innocently asked, "Susanne, what do turtles do?"  The silence was deafening as we all were laughing at how Susanne would explain this one without breaking radio etiquette.  Fortunately Zayda didn't push the question.

Ever notice how every caddie is a 5 handicap?  At least all the ones in Mexico claimed to be.

[TEPaul]

JohnV:

Good story about the turtles--and I'm never eating turtle soup again--for the same reason that WC Fields refused to drink water!!

Waiter:
"Would you like a glass of water Mr Fields?"

Fields;
"Water? WATER? Of course not--fish f... in it!"

Now would you people please quit telling all these left field stories and get back to the serious business of discussing golf course architecture?

[TEPaul]

"Now a serious question, Are you certain that the famous interview with Mr. Fields  is accurate as you relate it to us?  I might remain awake all night if I don't get the answer to this."

redanman:

The Fields story as I related it is accurate word for word--this has been documented by the Library of Congress after extensive and expensive research. You can go back to sleep now.

[SL_Solow]

As the story was related to me, the great W.C. used the word "fornicate" to describe the underwater activity.

[Bob_Huntley]

S'funny, I thought the line was coined by Winston Spencer Churchill.

[Coral_Ridge]

I would like to give this thread another try.  It had some severe thread creep.  But I will let it fade away if the readers choose not to post.  A possible good example of a golf course which might deserve some increased recognition is Northland CC.  It has been mentioned recently as dropping in the rankings and for unknown reasons.  If Northland was in St Paul and not in Duluth would it receive more notice for its' obvious qualities.

I want to point out that I do agree with one poster here that rankings have too much importance with some, but I do enjoy trying to understand why one golf course is considered a better game than another golf course.

[GeoffreyC]

As was mentioned before, a careful restoration can serve to showcase a course in addition to its major role in serving the membership.

Fenway GC magnificently restored by Gil Hanse, Rodney Hine and company and beautifully maintained by superintendent Bob Alonzii went from obscurity even in Westchester County to #50 in the Golfweek Classic list. (see Ran's profile if you want to know why this darkhorse is currently out in the light).

A darkhourse for future consideration (IMHO) would be Siwanoy CC in Bronxville, NY.   Its a way better overall D Ross design then French Lick although those greens at FL are pretty cool.  

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