Oak Hill and the PGA - Out of Date, or a Breath of Fresh Air?

[Ronald Montesano]

I would call it "parkland gone wrong".

If the fairways were as narrow as those other two events, the primary rough as thick and the other two cuts of rough, non-existent, I would agree.

I also suspect that I would grow tired of walking and watching multiple tournaments on the same course. If you're a member, it's your baby and you won't grow tired, as you know the course intimately. If you work in golf, it's your job and you have work to do, not golf to watch. If you're a fan and don't want to go back, I understand. I think that round one revealed a number of great story lines. Hopefully those players will hang tough through the weekend and connect the golfers to the course. Shawn Micheel and Chad Campbell are nice fellows for sure, but they aren't great story lines.

[Tim Martin]

That huge hardwood down on the left side of the par 3 3rd looks really out of place and seems to have no effect on the way the hole plays.

[JNC Lyon]

Thanks for sticking up for Oak Hill on the board.  I grew up playing Oak Hill, and while I certainly know it has its flaws, it's just a blast watching the tournament here.  There are a ton of subtle features at Oak Hill, and almost none of them will show up on television.  I agree that some of the trees are ridiculous (in fact, I'm usually the first to criticize this), but there is more room there than you realize.  Ultimately, if you are judging Oak Hill from your television, you are making an uninformed critique.

Also, I think the tournament setup has been fantastic.  The rain has made it soft, but there's not much to be done about that.  And, I actually like seeing the low scoring.  Funny, golf is the only sport where fans get upset when the professionals play well.  There are many words you could use to describe Oak Hill, but "boring" is not one of them.  Plus, this is a huge event for the club and for my hometown, and the crowds have been tremendous this week.  How folks can be so negative about such an event is beyond me.  If you have to take out your bitterness on something, focus on politics or some other mind-draining endeavor.

[Richard Choi]

Call me crazy, but given a choice between heavily wooded corridor with narrow fairways with graduated rough (Oak Hill) and less heavily wooded corridor with narrow fairways with no graduated rough (Merion), I will choose the former. At least the guys have a chance to hit something out of the rough even if they have to bend it around the trees.

Also, at least the guys are trying somewhat to avoid the bunkers this week, unlike at US Open where bunkers were beautiful oasis among sea of grass.

[Sean_A]

Thanks for sticking up for Oak Hill on the board.  I grew up playing Oak Hill, and while I certainly know it has its flaws, it's just a blast watching the tournament here.  There are a ton of subtle features at Oak Hill, and almost none of them will show up on television.  I agree that some of the trees are ridiculous (in fact, I'm usually the first to criticize this), but there is more room there than you realize.  Ultimately, if you are judging Oak Hill from your television, you are making an uninformed critique.

Also, I think the tournament setup has been fantastic.  The rain has made it soft, but there's not much to be done about that.  And, I actually like seeing the low scoring.  Funny, golf is the only sport where fans get upset when the professionals play well.  There are many words you could use to describe Oak Hill, but "boring" is not one of them.  Plus, this is a huge event for the club and for my hometown, and the crowds have been tremendous this week.  How folks can be so negative about such an event is beyond me.  If you have to take out your bitterness on something, focus on politics or some other mind-draining endeavor.

JNC

Its nothing personal and I am sure most people would recognize its a bit different for members or locals who grew up idolizing a place.  I think the main issue people are really pointing toward is Oak Hill doesn't really look distinctive from most other parkland championship courses.  Sure, there will always be details which set it apart for those who know it well, but is it really much different from others of its ilk which are often used for the PGA or US Open?

Ciao

[Brent Hutto]

Well it is certainly a generic parkland major championship venue. But heck, they've been contesting US Opens and PGA Championships on courses of Oak Hills' type for as long as there have been US Opens and PGA Championships. The greens were more interesting at Merion, though. I can't see much in it between Oak Hills, Winged Foot, Bethpage or some of the Midwestern major venues.

All perfectly fine places to settle a major competition among a bunch of boring slowpokes. It ain't the courses fault that watching these guys throw darts on a rain softened set of greens is stupefyingly dull. If you can't be there in person to marvel at the power and trajectory of these guys' shots then all you can hope for is some interest once the ball's on the ground. The rain took that right out of the picture this week, alas.

[BHoover]

Call me crazy, but given a choice between heavily wooded corridor with narrow fairways with graduated rough (Oak Hill) and less heavily wooded corridor with narrow fairways with no graduated rough (Merion), I will choose the former. At least the guys have a chance to hit something out of the rough even if they have to bend it around the trees.

+1.
The first two rounds of the PGA have been more interesting and exciting than those at Merion, at least in terms of scoring.

For those who aren't impressed with Oak Hill and its ilk, please enlighten me as to where the PGA should be held. I'm very curious to know.

[John Kavanaugh]

As exciting as the first half of an NBA playoff game. Eastern conference finals that is.

[Eric Smith]

I stayed home today and probably watched more golf than I have all year. Yes, I think the course has too many trees. No surprise there as a lot of courses do. But, from the start of coverage this morning with Scott's chip-in bird through to the end and Dufner's remarkable 63, I was plenty entertained...and well fed. [Thank you Papa John's]. I was also happy knowing my buddy John Lyon was on the ground taking it all in on his home course, which, to me, looked beautiful in HD. I'm looking forward to the weekend.

[Ronald Montesano]

"I think the main issue people are really pointing toward is Oak Hill doesn't really look distinctive from most other parkland championship courses."

"Oak Hill East is a mish-mash of architectural cognitive dissonance and a shallow imprinting of misplaced design."

"Is it to much to ask for one interesting feature to look out for besides a ditch that prevents a long par 5 from being reached."

"I didn't have a lick of interest in going up this year. I would call it "parkland gone wrong"."


Oak Hill revealed plans to hire the team that created the blue field at Boise State. Once the PGA ends, the team will arrive and turn every blade of grass on the putting greens azure. It will be the only blue parkland golf course, making it distinctive. The trees will all be fluffed up until they resemble Trufula Trees, the ones that the Lorax attempted to protect. Finally, Lake Ontario will be salted until it resembles the North Sea. The shore line will then be carved out until it reaches around the East course, creating a lake links.

At this point, Oak Hill will satisfy the demands of every one of its critics.

[John Foley]

 There are a ton of subtle features at Oak Hill, and almost none of them will show up on television.  I agree that some of the trees are ridiculous (in fact, I'm usually the first to criticize this), but there is more room there than you realize.  Ultimately, if you are judging Oak Hill from your television, you are making an uninformed critique.

John - great points on this. What is amazing being out there in person is remembering how MUCH strategy is there on MANY of the holes. Just a few holes from today

#1 - you need to stay left off the tee - missing right makes the hole SIGNIFICANTLY harder
#4 - Only way to hold the FW for a shot on in two is challenge the bunker on the rigt side - miss it right of that and bogey comes into play
#9 - IMHO - the BEST hole on the course - Dont go long enough with the drive or push it right you risk having no real means to hit the green. Long and left in the FW opens up the chance to hit to the very uphill green.
#10 - again - challenge the FW bunker on the left to get a position to attack the green - mis it right and bogey or worse is in play.
#14 - challenge the green and the approach shot becomes easier if you lay back - spin your wedge - little chance to get it close.

I think we will get a great weekend of golf and Oak Hill will produce a GREAT champion.

[jeffwarne]

I played a practice round for an upcoming event at a soft, treelined, parkland course last night.
I found having to be aware of where the tee ball was starting and how it was shaped to be quite enjoyable, and actually very strategic, with a variety of choices  in what club to hit off the tee, how much to shape it if at all,etc. to be quite refreshing and fascinating.
I had previously played a lot of golf at courses similar to this such as Sleepy Hollow and other Westchester venues.

Playing on the east end, and on my beloved links trips, the challenge is very different, and shaping the ball can be ideal, but certainly is only important if the ground conditions are firm, or the wind is reallly up, coupled with firm ground.
.Having played a lot of recent golf without trees that much in play, I sort've had gotten sloppy in being aware of precisily where my ball would start.
Both kinds of golf are fun.
Big world theory, even if I ultimately prefer links golf.

I have to believe that there is far more strategy at Oak Hill than meets the eye on television, particularly if the conditions are drier.

[Andy Troeger]

Saying that all treed parkland courses look the same on TV from those who haven't been there in person carries about as much weight as anyone who would say that all the British Open links courses look the same on TV from those who haven't been there in person.

All these major championship courses are better in person than they appear on TV. I'm sure there will be plenty of discussion about the course for awhile from those who are only watching on TV. I haven't seen Oak Hill and haven't watched yet, but from my experience playing courses that host tournaments, what can be seen on TV often doesn't hold a candle to what's really there on the ground.

Certainly some venues are still better courses than others, but I don't think TV does much to help determine that.

[Ronald Montesano]

Good points, AT. Television flattens, focuses and fattens. Those three "Fs" don't help to present the true picture of the grandeur of a golf course.

[noonan]

The lack of cross hatched mowing lines is a breath of fresh air. I love the up and back mowing lines in the fairway. Less time to maintain and not as busy.

[jeffwarne]

Saying that all treed parkland courses look the same on TV from those who haven't been there in person carries about as much weight as anyone who would say that all the British Open links courses look the same on TV from those who haven't been there in person.

All these major championship courses are better in person than they appear on TV. I'm sure there will be plenty of discussion about the course for awhile from those who are only watching on TV. I haven't seen Oak Hill and haven't watched yet, but from my experience playing courses that host tournaments, what can be seen on TV often doesn't hold a candle to what's really there on the ground.

Certainly some venues are still better courses than others, but I don't think TV does much to help determine that.

+1
and they didn't even move any fairways nearer to a road

[Sean_A]

Saying that all treed parkland courses look the same on TV from those who haven't been there in person carries about as much weight as anyone who would say that all the British Open links courses look the same on TV from those who haven't been there in person.

All these major championship courses are better in person than they appear on TV. I'm sure there will be plenty of discussion about the course for awhile from those who are only watching on TV. I haven't seen Oak Hill and haven't watched yet, but from my experience playing courses that host tournaments, what can be seen on TV often doesn't hold a candle to what's really there on the ground.

Certainly some venues are still better courses than others, but I don't think TV does much to help determine that.

But doesn't the viewing have to show you enough to want to make the trip?  Yes, its one thing to pop in when its convenient and quite another to add Oak Hill to the bucket list.  Folks have been down on Oakland Hills for much the same reasons as this venue.  Yet OH is a tough as nails championship venue with one of the best green sets in the world.  Still, it looks rather blah on tv and to be fair, tee to green the course is rather blah.  I think that is the default position of championship courses if people don't stop The Show taking over.  

Ciao

[Gary Slatter]

Oak Hill is neither out of date nor a breath of fresh air.   To me it is a classic historic American championship course and a superb test of golf for future Ben Hogans and future PGAs.   I have played OH 4 times, altho none since the hurricane thinned out the trees.  I loved the whole experience (and shot 72,74,74,72) under tournament conditions.

The water hazards look more contained than when I played, and I suspect they were smaller when Donald Ross left the property.

[Gary Slatter]

I forgot to add that I love the way the fairways are mowed.

[John Kavanaugh]

It sets up perfectly for an A+ rater experience. Congrats on the solid play!!!

[Don_Mahaffey]

I appreciate why locals like Ron and JNC defend Oak Hill as they know her best and know there is more then meets the TV screen.
To me, I try and think that, and try to listen to those who believe the course is very worthy of major tournament golf.

I think the argument that Merion and Muirfield had similar playing characteristics is a good one and worthy of consideration. But, there is just something about a tree lined course with extreme maintenance manicuring that makes it all look like plastic to me. On TV I mean of course. Merion and Murfield had similar maintenance presentations but it seem to get diluted in the broader views while at Oak Hill its all there bottled up between the trees.

I have no doubt Oak Hill is a fabulous course. I just wish they'd show some restraint with the never ending desire to show off maintenance. For once I'd like to see a championship course where the greenskeepers tried hard to mask their work instead of making sure everyone knows where they've been.  

[Ronald Montesano]

I appreciate why locals like Ron and JNC defend Oak Hill as they know her best and know there is more then meets the TV screen.
To me, I try and think that, and try to listen to those who believe the course is very worthy of major tournament golf.

Bob Huntley, on this very website, took me to task early on for defining Pebble Beach by what I'd seen on television. Since then, I've done my best to avoid a repetition of that mistake (no guarantees beyond effort.)

I think the argument that Merion and Muirfield had similar playing characteristics is a good one and worthy of consideration. But, there is just something about a tree lined course with extreme maintenance manicuring that makes it all look like plastic to me. On TV I mean of course. Merion and Murfield had similar maintenance presentations but it seem to get diluted in the broader views while at Oak Hill its all there bottled up between the trees.

We had an ice storm around 2008 that tore 500 trees out of CCBuffalo. For many of the members, they saw the vistas Donald J. saw when he laid out the course. Oak Hill, I don't believe, suffered the same fate. If it had, we might be looking (or not) at a different course today.

I have no doubt Oak Hill is a fabulous course. I just wish they'd show some restraint with the never ending desire to show off maintenance. For once I'd like to see a championship course where the greenskeepers tried hard to mask their work instead of making sure everyone knows where they've been.  

Wiser words have not been written on one of my threads. Thanks, Don.

[Carl Johnson]

I've never been to Oak Hill.  All I know is what I see on television.  It may or may not be a great course (but I am sure it is), and truly identify a most expert golfer (which depends, of course, on your definition of "expert golfer").  However, my subjective view of this year's PGA Championship, to date, as viewed on TV, is that the golf played on the course as it is being maintained for the tournament is very boring.  I want entainment.  I want to see shotmaking.  Too much just hacking it out.  What I'd really like to see, but never will, is how the course would play with no rough at at all (or at least with the fairway dimensions and rough as the members play it, which cannot be as we're looking at it now on TV, can it).  Let the ball run out on drives where the contours take it, and when they take it way far away, under the trees, let's see the shots the guys can make off the thin grass, hard pan, or whatever.  In sum, I don't regard the course as being played in the PGA a breath of fresh air, nor do I think it out of date.  Too bad Ross couldn't be around to advise on the maintenance and set up for this year's event.

[Ronald Montesano]

You cannot do that, Carl. You would have to eliminate gallery ropes or take them so far back that passage would be single file. There is always a trade-off when hosting an event of this spectator magnitude. It would be nice to invite the pros and zero spectators and see how they could play it under your conditions.

[Carl Johnson]

You cannot do that, Carl. You would have to eliminate gallery ropes or take them so far back that passage would be single file. There is always a trade-off when hosting an event of this spectator magnitude. It would be nice to invite the pros and zero spectators and see how they could play it under your conditions.

Understood.  Any way to compromise on the issue - again, just theoretical, as I know it would never happen?