Does huge public course success = pressure from that point on?

[David Davis]

If I look at Pacific Dunes, not to pick on Mr. Doak, but it's one of my favorites and maybe my question is poor but if your best design is a public accessible to everyone course and it's better than nearly all private courses what impact does that have on all your future work and the expectations here? I mean clearly a great project that's a success gets the architect tons of other work. I'm just curious if the fact that a first huge success or career builder course is public is the impact and pressure different than if it were private?

Any other examples that fit in here?

[Mike_Trenham]

Worked out ok for Donald Ross with #2.

[Jud_T]

DMK did OK with Bandon Dunes.  I suppose a highly rated high end public course will give you a lot more exposure than a highly rated very exclusive club that many cannot easily access.  Didn't Tom initially get the look for Cape Kidnappers when the client could only get out on Pac Dunes and was blown away? Alternatively C&C got a ton of press from Sand Hills, so perhaps it's just a question of quality, timing and buzz, rather than public or private...

[Mike_Young]

Wild Dunes?

[Tom_Doak]

David:

What sort of "pressure" are you talking about?

Mostly, huge success on a public / resort course = more opportunities.  The fact that my two courses in Bandon, Cape Kidnappers, Barnbougle and now Streamsong are all open to the public, means they get a heck of a lot more ink in the golf magazines than a private course does.  Not to mention that a lot more GOLFERS actually get to see them first hand, and there is nothing better than word of mouth advertising.

[David Davis]

Tom,

To me it seems like, with a few exceptions of course that great courses have mostly been reserved for private clubs. Putting a public course on the maps that blows away all but a few special private courses seems somehow slightly controversial since golf has this stigma of being something for the wealthy. It's in my opinion a bold move and statement not to mention risk on the side of the investors.

I was just wondering if there is an added pressure for follow ups and expectations given the huge success of a public facility as apposed to a private one for example. I could imagine a wealthy private club looking to renovate or put in a completely new course thinking well, if the architect can do that for a public facility imagine what they can do for a private one with more budgets etc.

Perhaps there is nothing behind this besides my curiosity and perhaps I'm way off base. As you mentioned maybe it's just a blessing due to the positive buzz created and international exposure.

I also suppose yours is an obvious example of it only benefitting in terms of business and more opportunities but are there examples of the contrary. Certainly there is also the pressure and expectation to follow up a great design with yet another and maybe better one. If nothing else I imagine a perfectionist like yourself puts that pressure on yourself and maybe even keeps that in mind when choosing your next project.

Does this pressure (if it truly exists) have a huge influence on what you would accept and would not moving forward?

For example, would you accept a high paying job on a completely disastrous property that you thought the likelihood of putting something spectacular together was slim to none?

[Tom_Doak]

David:

Sure, I guess there are some architects who have become successful on the back of one project, and taken on too many others too quickly.  That's not pressure getting to them, that's greed.

I've been lucky to be insulated from greed; every time we get into the position to cash in, another recession comes along and holds us back.  Opportunities following on from Pacific Dunes were slowed by 9/11 , and just when we started to sign up golf course development deals, the bottom fell out of that market.  God works in mysterious ways!

In the end, I think the main thing are your client's priorities.  If their main priority is golf, then you've always got a chance.  If not, then perhaps you should think about what really made you successful, and decide if that's right for you.

[Jason Topp]

Does David Kidd provide the best example of this?  He had a big success with Bandon Dunes but his courses thereafter seem to have fallen short of expectations (caveat - I have not played any of them).  

If he would have had more low profile projects would his follow up projects have been better received?  

[Jon Wiggett]

Jason,

I don't think Mac Dunes fell short of expectations. I think there are some on here who just do not like him for what ever reason and this can skew how people on here perceive course reception. I have talked to a dozen people who have played all four Bandon courses and over half put Bandon Dunes as their favourite at the resort which would certainly go against opinion on this site but then it is a very specific poster on here as apposed to your average golfer.

Jon

[Jud_T]

I have talked to a dozen people who have played all four Bandon courses and over half put Bandon Dunes as their favourite at the resort

Jon,

A lot of people love Coldplay, Campari, calve's liver, Rush Limbaugh and the designated hitter too.  Those people are simply wrong.

[Jon Wiggett]

I have talked to a dozen people who have played all four Bandon courses and over half put Bandon Dunes as their favourite at the resort

Jon,

A lot of people love Coldplay, Campari, calve's liver, Rush Limbaugh and the designated hitter too.  Those people are simply wrong.

No Jud, you just don't like that stuff. Other people have different opinions though I am with you on the Campari

Jon

[Jason Topp]

Jason,

I don't think Mac Dunes fell short of expectations. I think there are some on here who just do not like him for what ever reason and this can skew how people on here perceive course reception. I have talked to a dozen people who have played all four Bandon courses and over half put Bandon Dunes as their favourite at the resort which would certainly go against opinion on this site but then it is a very specific poster on here as apposed to your average golfer.

Jon

Jon - My experience has been the same as yours.  I would guess 50% of the people I have talked with like Bandon Dunes the best.  My comment was based on reactions to his courses built after that one. 

[Adam Lawrence]

I have talked to a dozen people who have played all four Bandon courses and over half put Bandon Dunes as their favourite at the resort

Jon,

A lot of people love Coldplay, Campari, calve's liver, Rush Limbaugh and the designated hitter too.  Those people are simply wrong.

Try Campari and grapefruit juice as a before dinner drink. Very refreshing and gets your palate going nicely!

No Jud, you just don't like that stuff. Other people have different opinions though I am with you on the Campari

Jon

[Jon Wiggett]

Jason,

I don't think Mac Dunes fell short of expectations. I think there are some on here who just do not like him for what ever reason and this can skew how people on here perceive course reception. I have talked to a dozen people who have played all four Bandon courses and over half put Bandon Dunes as their favourite at the resort which would certainly go against opinion on this site but then it is a very specific poster on here as apposed to your average golfer.

Jon

Jon - My experience has been the same as yours.  I would guess 50% of the people I have talked with like Bandon Dunes the best.  My comment was based on reactions to his courses built after that one. 

Jason,

I have never understood the downer so many on here have with DMK. Machrihanish Dunes was built after Bandon Dunes.

Jon