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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #150 on: February 27, 2019, 12:23:07 PM »
JK

Do you actually care if clubs are private, at least according to your definition?  If so, why?  Honestly, what difference does it make if Joe Blow CC allows unaccompanied visitors?  I get the feeling you are falling into bad habits again of just trying to wind people up without giving us humour or adding to the thread.  Instead you ask truly stupid questions like why would anyone want to join Muirfield.  Give me something snigger about. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #151 on: February 27, 2019, 12:25:03 PM »
MIke,

I wouldn't fall for the JK trap.  He is typically on the front lines of pining for the good old days of private clubs and people staying in their relative golf lane.  And he also came up with this beauty many moons ago that went something like this..

"Private clubs are not about who you let in, but who you can keep out"


Kalen,


Please don't misquote me.


John,


I thought I did well to clarify it wasn't the exact quote.  But given you said it so long ago, have had 4-5 different account names, and the site has been purged at least once, I'm unable to find it.  ;)


Kalen,


Since you admit that you are just making stuff up and given the racist overtones of your words either delete it or stop pretending it's funny with smiley faces.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #152 on: February 27, 2019, 12:27:08 PM »
JK

Do you actually care if clubs are private, at least according to your definition?  If so, why?  Honestly, what difference does it make if Joe Blow CC allows unaccompanied visitors?  I get the feeling you are falling into bad habits again of just trying to wind people up without giving us humour or adding to the thread.  Instead you ask truly stupid questions like why would anyone want to join Muirfield.  Give me something snigger about. 

Ciao


I obviously don't care or I wouldn't be paying dues to so many clubs. Mike is the one that can't seem to accept the fact that golf is semi-private everywhere but very very few places.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #153 on: February 27, 2019, 12:35:30 PM »
JK

Do you actually care if clubs are private, at least according to your definition?  If so, why?  Honestly, what difference does it make if Joe Blow CC allows unaccompanied visitors?  I get the feeling you are falling into bad habits again of just trying to wind people up without giving us humour or adding to the thread.  Instead you ask truly stupid questions like why would anyone want to join Muirfield.  Give me something snigger about. 

Ciao

I obviously don't care or I wouldn't be paying dues to so many clubs. Mike is the one that can't seem to accept the fact that golf is semi-private everywhere but very very few places.

I may be mistaken, but I think Mike is very willing to admit that many clubs are so-called semi-private (is that like being semi-pregnant?), but some people have more and better access than others.  Thats how I look at it.  I don't care, of course with the exceptions of where I am a member.   8)

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #154 on: February 27, 2019, 12:39:35 PM »
I obviously don't care or I wouldn't be paying dues to so many clubs. Mike is the one that can't seem to accept the fact that golf is semi-private everywhere but very very few places.
I guess it's a matter of who you know and who you don't. Unfortunately, outside of people at my own club, I don't have an "in" at a lot of other privates to help get me on their courses - accompanied or not. I'm not well connected enough, nor do I care to be.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 12:41:42 PM by Mike Bodo »
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #155 on: February 27, 2019, 12:44:45 PM »
We now live in a sharing society. I wouldn't want to live in a condominium that allows AirBnB or VRBO. Like I said earlier, privacy is done.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #156 on: February 27, 2019, 12:52:17 PM »
We now live in a sharing society. I wouldn't want to live in a condominium that allows AirBnB or VRBO. Like I said earlier, privacy is done.

JK

I don't think "sharing" has changed much at all.  Its just that these days, it doesn't have to be members that share...it can be the collective club which shares...for whatever reasons.  Its amazing what happens at clubs that members know little about.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

B.Ross

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #157 on: February 27, 2019, 05:03:47 PM »

this thread given some of the new participants involved is taking a naturally trollish turn but some interesting questions are being raised. how do private clubs stay afloat & control costs without fully devaluing the standard member's membership through national memberships, unaccompanied pro approved play by vetted private club members and associations with clubs that don't have facilities. it's quite a catch 22 b/c private non-profit clubs are supposed to only supposed to generate 15% of their revenue from outside sources yet many need guest fees & outings to stay afloat. i'm sure some private club members would welcome more of that outside play if it reduced dues, but instead the extra revenue tends to get reinvested into the club in ways that never satisfy anyone. a few thoughts:

- the days of pros calling pros, and pros controlling who they do favors for, will ultimately end due to the ascent of networks like thousandgreens.com and the ability of people to connect for access via social media (GCA, instagram etc). and i think this is a good thing as it removes the politics & favor system.

- clubs need to do greater analysis before setting their unaccompanied rates. it's time to embrace big data and utilize tee sheet / ghin software to see how many rounds your members played the year prior plus what they paid in dues and what their applicable initiation fee would be for that year to determine average/ median cost per round played and see how that stacks up against guest & unaccompanied fees. this would help members feel like country club math may be in their favor for once. just setting an unaccompanied rate at 2x of a guest rate is probably no longer sufficient.




TL, DR: my take is the future of american private golf may rely on clubs utilizing platforms like thousandgreens to expand reciprocity and networking for their memberships as it creates membership value locally and when traveling. if that makes every club "semi-private", so be it.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #158 on: February 27, 2019, 05:36:58 PM »
Could someone please describe what is meant in the US by a ‘semi-private’ club?
It’s not a phrase I’ll familiar with on the U.K. side of the pond!
Is is maybe a pay-n-play facility with a membership option attached? Is it a private members club but where non-members can pay a greenfee and play? Or is it something else?
Atb

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #159 on: February 27, 2019, 05:52:13 PM »
Could someone please describe what is meant in the US by a ‘semi-private’ club?
It’s not a phrase I’ll familiar with on the U.K. side of the pond!
Is is maybe a pay-n-play facility with a membership option attached? Is it a private members club but where non-members can pay a greenfee and play? Or is it something else?
Atb


The UK model
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #160 on: February 27, 2019, 05:54:35 PM »
At Sand Hills any non member can ask and play once. That's neither private or public. That's semi-private.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #161 on: February 27, 2019, 09:17:42 PM »
"Could someone please describe what is meant in the US by a ‘semi-private’ club?"

Thomas Dai -

Suffice it to say John Kavanaugh's criteria for what constitutes a "semi-private" club is way, way outside the norm of what is generally considered a semi-private club in the U.S. His notion that any private club that accepts a (very) limited amount of unaccompanied guest play makes that club a semi-private club is absolute nonsense in my opinion.   

A semi-private club in the U.S. is one that both offers memberships for unlimited play (with monthly or annual dues) and readily accepts daily fee play from the general public. These clubs typically promote daily fee play by advertising this feature and quoting the daily greens fee and their websites. In this regard, these clubs are not too dissimilar from the clubs in GB&I. In addition, daily fee golfers are often able to book a tee time over the club's website.

Here is an example of a semi-private club:

http://www.plumaslake.com/

DT 

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #162 on: February 28, 2019, 12:59:53 AM »
David -


You hit the nail on the head! Essentially, there are formal semi-private clubs, i.e. those cited in your example that advertise and promote themselves as both a private membership and daily fee course and then formal private clubs that allow the occasional unaccompanied guest to play their course through a variety of ways and means. In John's mind, any exclusive private club that allows unaccompanied guests to play, regardless of the number or frequency, is effectively semi-private club. I completely understand where he is coming from, though it's really stretching the definition of what constitutes a semi-private club in the U.S.


In one of the recent NLU "Strapped" videos, there's a scene where Big Randy is getting chastised by Soly and Tron for playing a semi-private club instead of a public course in the Northeast U.S. given the budget he and Neal (Schuster) had to stay within and doing so under the pretense they were to only play public courses. Randy's response to them was, "If a club is semi-private, doesn't that also mean it's semi-public?" I got a huge chuckle from that, because it's an accurate oxymoron.


Based on everything we've heard from John on this subject I believe in his mind that outside of the elite privates there are either semi-private or semi-public clubs/courses. Private clubs that allow unaccompanied guests fall into the semi-private category, while those that offer private membership and a daily fee rate are semi-public. I'm sure he'll correct me, but that's the gist I take from this.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #163 on: February 28, 2019, 03:36:09 AM »
Could someone please describe what is meant in the US by a ‘semi-private’ club?
It’s not a phrase I’ll familiar with on the U.K. side of the pond!
Is is maybe a pay-n-play facility with a membership option attached? Is it a private members club but where non-members can pay a greenfee and play? Or is it something else?
Atb

ATB

Basically, semi-private is very similar to the UK model.   The main distinction between semi-private and public is there is a membership element which will operate much like a private club.  I don't know of many of this sort of club, though I suspect the numbers have been on the rise in the past 10-15 years.  These are the sorts of clubs which will seem somewhat reasonably priced for membership for guys used to costs at a good Midlands club.  Mind you, you may get a pool, work out room and maybe a separate dining dining room included in membership...ironically....likely the extras which helped drive the club into needing public play. This model must be a huge boon for retired people who like to socialize. I suspect the big issue with these clubs is finding that fine line between member and visitor tee times....again, much like in the UK. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #164 on: February 28, 2019, 04:16:52 AM »
Thanks guys for the clarifications.
Atb

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #165 on: February 28, 2019, 07:00:36 AM »
Could someone please describe what is meant in the US by a ‘semi-private’ club?
It’s not a phrase I’ll familiar with on the U.K. side of the pond!
Is is maybe a pay-n-play facility with a membership option attached? Is it a private members club but where non-members can pay a greenfee and play? Or is it something else?
Atb
It's basically a public golf course that has memberships also.  JK described it best...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #166 on: February 28, 2019, 07:14:39 AM »

I suspect the big issue with these clubs is finding that fine line between member and visitor tee times....again, much like in the UK. 


Sean,



That pretty much nails it.



It has been a timely thread, as I am 80% complete booking my Irish trip where I am navigating the websites of my Member club (Enniscrone GC) vs Visitor club (rest of Ireland). After a 10 year hiatus due to life/family stuff, the Irish sites are very easy to navigate. In addition, if you send the friendly correspondence (email today vs phone calls or letter 10 years ago), you can navigate some below the radar options.


When you see these websites, it feels like buying a plane ticket. Private golf, or all of golf, is arguably going through a period that feels similar to airline deregulation. I actually had a lecture once from Alfred Kahn who was identified as the  "Father of Airline Deregulation" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_E._Kahn He was a fascinating man and he had great stories of how HE gamed the system before the kinks got worked out by the airlines.


Much like the airline industry, you will have private golf same as private jets. The complicated piece for golf will be how to handle the social and playing considerations which is much easier for the airline industry to deal with because they have the ultimate need for government regulation. Nobody wants their private or public jet to fall from the sky! Golf is the some sort of ultimate in dealing with people, and that is NOT easy!!
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #167 on: February 28, 2019, 07:20:32 AM »
If you are in a conversation with someone about a club that you may or may not be a member and they ask you if the club is private the answer should be simple. Yes, but...is semi-private.


I don't see any private in a course that sells tee times on GolfNow. Here are some hot deals on GolfNow at the course David mentions:


https://www.golfnow.com/tee-times/facility/684-plumas-lake-golf-and-country-club/search#timemax=42&timemin=10&holes=3&players=0&pricemax=10000&pricemin=0&date=Feb+28+2019&sortby=Date&view=List&ratetype=all


The above is public.


Let's look at a Yes, but... conversation:


Golfer: Is your club private?


Member: Yes but I can call and get you an unaccompanied tee time for you and your friends. It will cost you at least as twice as much as it would if I joined you. Or if you really don't feel like being indebted to me just have your pro call and set it up. Or you can join Burnt Toast and not only play this course but every other course where I pay monthly dues.


Golfer: So in other words, anyone can play your course?


Member: Actually yes. We take great pride in sharing our course with other people who love the game. We host charity outings, tournaments and youth clinics. The club plays a little known but important role in our community. I'm proud to be a member of a semi-private club.


Golfer: Now tell me how I join Burnt Toast...



John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #168 on: February 28, 2019, 07:44:55 AM »
Member: I don't know how you join Burnt Toast. You see it's a club without a club. You give them money and they get you access. It truly is a wonderful thing full of happy golfers meeting at the finest courses all over the world. It is a win/win for everyone involved including the clubs who participate as they gain revenue during times that may have otherwise gone empty. A fantastic concept that may be the future of private golf.


Golfer: Why are you a member of all these clubs and not Burnt Toast.


Member: If someone don't put butter on the toast little Johnny ain't getting breakfast. The world is always going to need members.


Golfer: Wow, why didn't you just tell me your course was private and get it over with. I missed my bus!!!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #169 on: February 28, 2019, 07:46:15 AM »
JK

Well, any of us can rail against common terminology, though I am not sure what you hope to achieve by having all clubs being labelled public. 

Sweeney

It is incredible how bad so many golf websites are.  The important questions most non-member wants to know is accessibility and cost.  Yet sometimes this info is buried.  Sometimes...one has to go into a tee booking system to get an idea of green fee...its crazy. 

Mike Y

I think semi-privates call themselves that to accentuate that there is membership available which traditionally means something quite different from a season ticket, which is what most publics offer.  Publics rarely offer comps or other member events which help to build an identity which good clubs enjoy. That said, I don't know how well semi-privates do in fostering a proper member's club while still being open and friendly to visitors.  That said, its becoming a problem in the UK as well. In high season, it can be difficult to tell one is visiting a members' with all the tourists running around. 

Ciao 
« Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 07:49:12 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #170 on: February 28, 2019, 08:09:49 AM »
Sean,


I just don't want to tell someone that I am a member of a private club and then bump into them on the first tee. This recently happened to me in reverse at a top 50 club. Me and three buddies gained access, for $400 each, and just as we were headed out to play my buddy runs into his neighbor down in Florida. The conversation starts: I didn't know you were a member too.


It's also not uncommon for me to read on this site that someone who I know is not a member has recently played a course where I pay dues. Isn't it healthier for me to accept the fact that I hold memberships at semi-private courses?


Privacy may be the single most important issue in my life today. It has far reaching implications and as much as I want it both ways that is not going to be possible.


I have recently rented a number of homes on VRBO some of which are in gated communities. Each time I am wary of the neighbors not knowing their status. I'll soon get over that and treat everyone like they are renters like me. That can't be good for property values.


I don't know if the Eskimos got it right but I'm leaning to share.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #171 on: February 28, 2019, 09:24:40 AM »
JK

I am not too worried about 1st world issues of bumping into members you may know ::)

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #172 on: February 28, 2019, 09:30:57 AM »
JK

I am not too worried about 1st world issues of bumping into members you may know ::)

Ciao


I spend about half my day worried I'm going to bump into someone I know.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #173 on: February 28, 2019, 10:51:43 AM »
John,

At the end of the day, its basically an issue of permission.

If one has to get special permission to play a course, whether its thru a phone call or nicely written letter or a pro setting up reciprocal play... its a private course.  But if they advertise limted tee times for anyone to show up and pay like the UK model or a Pasatiempo, then its semi-private.

Its really no more complicated than that.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 10:54:54 AM by Kalen Braley »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?
« Reply #174 on: February 28, 2019, 10:57:42 AM »
JK

I am not too worried about 1st world issues of bumping into members you may know ::)

Ciao

I spend about half my day worried I'm going to bump into someone I know.

Do you have a guilty conscious?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing