What is the Future of American Private Club Golf?

[Phil McDade]

On the other hand, a cousin of mine is an avid golfer and lives in an area (o.k., it's the Pinehurst, NC, area) where there are lots of great daily fee options.  He belongs to a well organized group of golfers named the "Whatevers" who are members of no private club but organize frequent games, weekly at worst, at very nice daily fee courses.  In effect, they have a club - a private club, if you will - but do not have to worry about supporting a club with a course and other amenities.  In the right place, with the right people, this is a "private club" option that could be the future.

What goes around, comes around. This is essentially the Scottish model for golf "clubs" -- which somewhere along the line (probably when the Honourably Company moved out to Gullane) became inextricably linked to golf courses. And golf in its origins wasn't like that -- like-minded golfers formed the "club," and oftentimes used common-land courses (shared by other clubs) for their rounds.

We often get caught up a in debate about private vs. public golf (in whatever form that comes in), when I wonder if there might be a third way.

[Bill_McBride]

On the other hand, a cousin of mine is an avid golfer and lives in an area (o.k., it's the Pinehurst, NC, area) where there are lots of great daily fee options.  He belongs to a well organized group of golfers named the "Whatevers" who are members of no private club but organize frequent games, weekly at worst, at very nice daily fee courses.  In effect, they have a club - a private club, if you will - but do not have to worry about supporting a club with a course and other amenities.  In the right place, with the right people, this is a "private club" option that could be the future.

What goes around, comes around. This is essentially the Scottish model for golf "clubs" -- which somewhere along the line (probably when the Honourably Company moved out to Gullane) became inextricably linked to golf courses. And golf in its origins wasn't like that -- like-minded golfers formed the "club," and oftentimes used common-land courses (shared by other clubs) for their rounds.

We often get caught up a in debate about private vs. public golf (in whatever form that comes in), when I wonder if there might be a third way.

Mike Whitaker organized a group like that, I think it's called the "Greenville Golfing Society."   It's a great idea when there is a good variety of decent public courses in an area. 

[Dan Herrmann]

What will differentiate a private golf club to, say, a private downtown club (like the Union League in Philly)?  As far as I know, most of those social clubs (not the Union League) are gone today. 

Why are they gone?  Our society changed.

[Jim Hoak]

In thinking about clubs, I think it is necessary to think about a phenomenon that has occurred in pretty much the last 20-30 years--the housing development anchored by a golf course.  This has been a common theme of residential housing development in modern times.  I think it has changed golf and golf courses and golf course architecture substantially--not necessarily for the better.  I think also it provides a different answer to the question of the future of golf clubs.  It becomes a place where you live--or retire--not a club you join with like-minded people for a common purpose.

[Andrew Buck]

In thinking about clubs, I think it is necessary to think about a phenomenon that has occurred in pretty much the last 20-30 years--the housing development anchored by a golf course.  This has been a common theme of residential housing development in modern times.  I think it has changed golf and golf courses and golf course architecture substantially--not necessarily for the better.  I think also it provides a different answer to the question of the future of golf clubs.  It becomes a place where you live--or retire--not a club you join with like-minded people for a common purpose.

Agreed.

A couple other thoughts come to mind.  The addition of so many high end public courses has drastically changed the ability of the businessman to entertain at a nice place without joining a club.  It's interesting, but in the Chicago area it seems every banker who came to prominence before about 2000 has a membership at a Private Club, while any of the younger guys will still invite clients out, but to a high end public course.  I'm sure some of that is change in the banking industry, but across the board, the additional options for business entertainment has had to hurt clubs.

Also, while I'm sure many of the chain golf superstores aren't necessarily thriving, their mere existence in the numbers that exist show people still spend a lot of money on golf.

[Jud_T]

Let's not forget that club memberships used to be tax deductible in the states and many companies used to offer memberships as a perk to executives...


Andrew,

I didn't realize Chicago had so many high-end public options....Oh, perhaps you just mean high priced....

[Wayne_Kozun]

The addition of so many high end public courses has drastically changed the ability of the businessman to entertain at a nice place without joining a club.  It's interesting, but in the Chicago area it seems every banker who came to prominence before about 2000 has a membership at a Private Club, while any of the younger guys will still invite clients out, but to a high end public course.  I'm sure some of that is change in the banking industry, but across the board, the additional options for business entertainment has had to hurt clubs.

That's true but if you are a client and you are invited to Medinah, Butler National, Chicago Golf Club or Olympia Fields wouldn't you be more likely to go than if you are invited to a high end public course like Cog Hill?

A private course is a FAR better place to entertain clients, especially when it has great history like some of the old clubs in the major cities.

[Andrew Buck]

Andrew,

I didn't realize Chicago had so many high-end public options....Oh, perhaps you just mean high priced....

You are right on the tax change as well, but that happened a little bit earlier I thought.  In addition, the banks are still paying to entertain, and only get 50% deduction either way.

There are certainly some unreasonably priced.  In reality, few "business contacts" care as much about quality of layout vs quality of condition, so it serves the market.  Overall, you are correct, Chicago public golf does leave me wanting, and I'd rather play some lower profile places, like Orchard Valley or Highlands of Elgin than the Glen Club or Bollingbrook.

In reality, there are probably 15 clubs I'd rather play at than Dubsdred, but I never leave Dubs feeling I didn't play a good test (even if it's not the right venue for many golfers).

[Matt MacIver]

Six years later, where are we on this topic?  I frankly see no change from 2013 in 1) the country club model(s); 2) interest in playing golf; 3) interest in watching golf; 4) the rules of golf. Ok, the rules changed materially...and still stink.

[Edward Glidewell]

I personally would love to join a private club, but it's not financially feasible. The combination of initiation and monthly dues is way beyond what I could afford.

[Mark Chaplin]

Anything changed in 6 years? I’m guessing the President hasn’t given private golf clubs a tax break, it wouldn’t help his “family’s” businesses.


I’m lucky to eat on a fairly regular basis at some very fine London social clubs. These are by and large very exclusive with long waiting lists and old money members. This week was no different to usual, at the East India, Devonshire and Public Schools Club known as the East India Club the bar was busy, the dining room full and the atmosphere lively. There were diners of both sexes (the club is male only membership) and ages of table hosts ranged from mid 20s upwards. The club charge an annual membership fee and no monthly FB minimums.


Why is my experience at high end US golf clubs so different? Dining rooms full of staff yet I’ve only been to one that was full at dinner and had a pleasant atmosphere (Franklin Hills). Many have been 20% full and the food adequate but lacking excitement. Why do members put up with this? Most club restaurants would close if they had to stand on their own two feet with no income guarantee through minimums.


I am unaware of a UK golf club without accommodation that serves dinner on a daily basis.

[Mike Sweeney]

Six years later, where are we on this topic?

Speaking for myself, this year I will not have a private golf club in my life for the first time in many years. It is more a reflection of a transitioning life with two sons graduating this year in the family, and I will be going to Ireland for the first time in years to golf. I have had the "15 Round" membership at Yale for years, but it us just too hard to get up there these days. In 2013, I would have guessed that more "2nd Tier Clubs" would have created more European style memberships in the NYC area, but they have not, or I am not aware of any.


My general impression is that many of the 2nd Tier Clubs in the NYC area are about 50 members short of where they want to be from full membership. In 2005, my guess is those same clubs had 50 people on a waiting list and only Pound Ridge (public) and Sebonack have opened during that time in the NY Met area.


In 2019, it is back to Bethpage, but more Red and Yellow than in 1989 when I only played Black and Red!! Never loved The Blue

[Sean_A]

Six years later, where are we on this topic?

Speaking for myself, this year I will not have a private golf club in my life for the first time in many years. It is more a reflection of a transitioning life with two sons graduating this year in the family, and I will be going to Ireland for the first time in years to golf. I have had the "15 Round" membership at Yale for years, but it us just too hard to get up there these days. In 2013, I would have guessed that more "2nd Tier Clubs" would have created more European style memberships in the NYC area, but they have not, or I am not aware of any.

Sweeney

Great, what am I spose to do for Yale coverage now 

Its interesting when these threads are dragged up because one gets a chance to read what they wrote.  I still feel like I did six years ago. 

I think in the US things will just churn along.  I don't see a need to panic or worry.  Many middle class clubs will die on the vine, become some sort of public course or remain private as low key joints.  That isn't a situation which should be alarming.

I know that if I moved back to the States it would be a very hard adjustment for golf.  I admit to being very fortunate. I would probably look into forming my own club which plays over public courses.  Whitty's club is quite impressive and a good blueprint on how to move forward.

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

Great, what am I spose to do for Yale coverage now 

Meet you in Maine, home of the Sean-A Golf Model:

[Sean_A]

Great, what am I spose to do for Yale coverage now 

Meet you in Maine, home of the Sean-A Golf Model:

I must admit, if it was at all possible to achieve, a trip starting in NY and zig zagging north for a month of golf and folly to end in Maine sounds quite zesty.

Ciao

[Dave Doxey]

No change for me since I contributed to this topic 5 years ago.  Golf for me is the group of regular partners that I play with.  As long as I have a regular group that I enjoy, where to play becomes a decision based upon cost-per-round and quality of the course experience (condition, service, pace of play, tee time availability).

While I can afford to join any club I choose, I play public.  I play with three different groups of regular players whom I enjoy.  Two groups are senior leagues.  No memberships. I don’t need a pool, tennis, restaurant, health club, or ass kissing staff. I don’t have anything to prove relative to ‘status’.  Wife and family have no interest in a club at all, including golf.   I once belonged to a simple private, golf-only, club.  I enjoyed that greatly, entirely due to a good group of regular players.  Sadly a move away ended that.  That was a long time ago and golf was not in the financial crisis that it’s in today.  I’ve not been able to find a similar club today.

Golfers, as customers, are in a very good time period right now. Although likely short-lived.  Public golf in the US is plentiful and very inexpensive. (Discounters like GolfNow make it even less expensive.)  In the future, supply will contract as courses close, and prices will go up.  That also changes the equation for privates. Less public supply may drive golfers to join private.  On the other hand, fewer golfers may force privates to compete harder for members.  Hard to predict.

I’ve had an invitation from a private clubs for a $5K initiation, where a few years ago they wanted $25K. The risk of club failure or sale, increased dues, and new assessments all would make me think twice if I were considering a private.  I’ve had neighbors lose $50K initiations when a local club folded after 3 years.

If I ever find that simple golf-only club and get to know members that I like, I make go back private.  Sadly it seems that clubs today are going the other way, with more and more non golf amenities to try to attract families rather than to cater to old-guy golfers.

[Lou_Duran]

Sadly it seems that clubs today are going the other way, with more and more non golf amenities to try to attract families rather than to cater to old-guy golfers.

Two things happen to "old-guy golfers", they sit longer on their wallets and they die.  Rather than lament the Club Corp strategy- they are in the entertainment business of which golf is but one aspect- I applaud the efforts to appeal to a larger variety of folks.


If golf is to survive as we've known it since the second half of the 20th Century, it will have to expand its offerings.  A large clubhouse may not be appealing to the trunk-slamming, golf-only crowd, but it works as a central, indispensable amenity at many highly regarded private clubs.  There is a lot to be said for a busy locker room, men's grill, and family areas.

My 2 cents worth is that there will be many opportunities in the next 20+ years to join what were once legacy golf-only clubs.  Getting into a place like Dallas CC which has an adequate golf course, but is top shelf otherwise will continue to be nearly impossible for someone like me.     

[Ira Fishman]

Golf in the US whether private or public will continue to shrink unless we find a way to encourage more women to play more. The era of guys disappearing for the better part of a day for golf, beers, and burgers are long gone.


Ira

[mike_beene]

One encouraging thing I heard today: 70 kids have signed up for our junior program. I know they won't all become players, but that is more players than we seem to ever get in a day.

[Mike_Young]

I sometimes tire of all the solutions and BS surrounding how golf will get better...these effing programs for kids and TopGolf and golf for women etc are all BS to put money in the pockets of the associations etc that push it.  Golf can work if many of the layers are removed...  Has anyone ever read the book  Good to Great by Collins.  Read it.  The industry is not the small segment we hear about constantly.

[archie_struthers]

 


Man the life boats and send the undertaker. If you had to go by this thread we'd all be out of the golf business pretty soon. It is one of the few commodities that has been flat in pricing over the last two decades while the product improves.


We should be wary of squeezing the lemon too hard here, you might not get what you should be wishing for.


Perhaps golf will once again become an elitist sport, and those that play will accept they might have to pay a little to enjoy this wonderful game. When we start having conversations about how much it costs to play a round as the sole determinant of choice we have lost the war. On second thought maybe not quite yet. 


 Could it be its the wrong pitch? Or the customers you seek aren't the right ones.


So lets talk to the insurance guy who joins a nice club, not necessarily an elite club but a good one with lots of activity and other members from various economic strata. Wouldn't he / she get some business there without making cold calls. One real estate transaction for our members in that field more than pay a years dues. Does that give anyone multiplying rounds by $ pause?


How about a mechanic, a carpenter? I know where I go for these jobs, yep two members last week got a call from me and they both did a great job for a fair price. Plus I just gave them the keys to the house and said have at it. What's that worth?  Oops I forgot the electrician who plays in our group, he helped me out last month. I sent him to my best client with zero worries , good for both of us.



Lets see...perhaps your daughter is getting married or you have a funeral luncheon to host. Maybe , just maybe you feel better about turning it over to someone who knows and cares about your family, and if the place knows what its doing they should do it for you at a really good price. Then there is your time in this go go society and the difficulty of scheduling your favorite recreational activity with four like minded folks every week. What if one of the gets sick or has something come up. At a good private there is a myriad of options as to who you can play with and little time restrictions. Call at 1030 and say I'm in for the noon game ! How much is that worth , $500 ? $1,000 a year I certainly think so.


Oops forgot something we do that is a nice perk ....if you are a golf member your children don't pay til after college , yep that's right gratissimo. It has been a wonderful experience watching them grow up to be fine men and women!


There is hope for the private club folks, it isn't quite dead yet. Might just be a little under appreciated by the bean counters!

[mike_beene]

People living longer must be good for golf. Perhaps that is another reason clubs at least in my part of the world seem to stay full.

[Mike Sweeney]

There is hope for the private club folks, it isn't quite dead yet. Might just be a little under appreciated by the bean counters!

Great post Archie. You have made me re-consider Yale 2019. It works for me - walking with my bag, playing with Reverend Bill, checking in with Ray, allowing my Autistic son to walk with me (I only take him in the off season), running into Coach Colin ... it is a great place and obviously the course draws in people who I appreciate. Just a little far logistically, and standard Modern Man Caveat - "I have to check with The Boss".


I do consider you @ Greate Bay and Yale to be outliers in the private club market in the USA, and that is a complement!! Perhaps we can create a Bongo Room Golf Society to complement your land based golf club and do a home and home this season !! 

[archie_struthers]

 




Mr Sweeney your post made my day.


Losing a good member cuts to the bone, and when they return to the fold its biblical. We have a nice club but there is plenty we can do to get more members and their friends to enjoy themselves. Lots of things to improve and change going forward. That's whats hopeful.


By the way there was only one Bongo Room, legendary and sorely missed forever

[Lou_Duran]

People living longer must be good for golf. Perhaps that is another reason clubs at least in my part of the world seem to stay full.

If you find data of oldsters 75-85 playing more golf than in the past, forward it to me.  The much maligned NGF based much of its robust forecasts of 20+ years ago on the hordes of Boomers at the peak of their careers, followed by a long period of retirement with considerable wealth to enjoy an extended upscale lifestyle of golf, travel, and leisure.  White-collar lay-offs, a major recession, near-zero interest rates on savings, and high medical costs and taxes sort of put a damper on things.


We are fortunate in our "part of the world" that despite horrid weather and the low-esteem in which we are held by the elites,  people and businesses keep moving down, up, and sideways to here.  Though perhaps tiny in proportion, there are high numbers of young professionals with large incomes who don't wince at the six-figure initiation fees and $1k monthly dues.  The high-end clubs without debt will do fine for a very long time.  Not so sure how well the second and third tiers will do 5, 10, 15 years out.


And as Archie points out, these are glorious times for the golf consumer.  Arlington just opened its $22+ Million redo ($8+ Million for the course) of its Ditto golf course (renamed the Texas Rangers Golf Club).  I had a brief tour last month and it is fabulous.  Rockwood in Fort Worth was redone two years ago on a more modest budget and it is outstanding.  There are any number of daily-fees in the area which have little pricing power yet provide a very good golfing experience.  In fact, even in nominal terms, there are courses which cost less today than they did 20, 30 years ago (e.g. Bear Creek, Texas Star).  Mike Young is right.  We should enjoy it while we can.  Golf is a very bifurcated "industry".