James Braid

[Niall C]

"Why isn't James Braid acknowledged as one of the great archies?" - Sean Arble from the Perranporth thread.

Let me add my own question, is Braid the most underestimated GCA of the well known architects ? As sean notes Braid could make great use of interesting land by the way he routed the course which is something that really struck me when I reacquainted myself with Boat of Garten recently. The same trait can be seen at East Ren and Forfar to name two more terrific tracks that just don't register on here.

In terms of routing, is he better than his "amateur" contemporaries ? Was it that his greens perhaps lacked some of the flair of a Colt or a MacKenzie ? So why isn't he recognised as being one of the greats ?

Thoughts ?

Niall

[Tom_Doak]

I do think Braid is underrated as an architect.  The problem is that most of his work is on courses in the UK which have been changed multiple times, and it's hard to know for sure how much of the work is his, vs. someone else's.  For example, I'm a big fan of Brora and Pennard and St. Enodoc, all great routings, but I really don't know if those are Braid's routings or not.

There is sometimes the perception (however unfair) that he just came in and added a few bunkers ... particularly since so many courses in the UK have a bunker in the fairway they call "Braid's bunker."

[Sean_A]

Niall

I truly do believe that Braid is very much undervalued as an archie.  Part of the reason for this is the mis-information that surrounds his work.  Braid has the rep of being very penal, but that couldn't be further from the truth.  Braid designed courses for clients using the land the best he could.  As with many projects, often times the land was poor and budgets small.  Not much can be expected in these circumstances.  Part of the reason Braid may be seen as a penal archie has to be connected with the pro/amateur divide in the early part of the 20th century.  The Oxbridge set ruled the roost and it might be said mercilessly if we listen to folks like Simpson.  In any case, playing Braid holes one is struck by how easily Braid could move from penal to lay of the land to strategic design.  I also believe that his long-time right hand man, John Stutt, must be given some credit. 

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

As others have indicated, James Braid was a UK man. He apparently hated travelling by sea, even short trips to UK offshore islands, and thus his design work hasn't travelled like others from that period. He did some wonderful work in the UK though, some real gems as already mentioned.

All the best

[Nigel Islam]

I believe Ian Andrew had him ranked #19 in his excellent rankings a few years back. That seems to be about right.

[jeffwarne]

I can't tell you how many times I've played a course in the UK that I loved and found out later it was Braid.
I just assumed he designed them all

[David_Tepper]

Don't forget about the James Braid Golf Trail(s):

http://golf.visitscotland.com/home_of_golf/james_braid.aspx

[Thomas Dai]

Curious to know if anyone posting here is a member of the James Braid Golfing Society? - http://www.thebraidsociety.com/home - and if so are there any regular competitions or get-togethers and furthermore, if so where are they held?
All the best

[David_Tepper]

Did Braid design many courses from scratch? My sense is the vast amount of his work was renovation/alteration/updating of existing courses.

[Scott Warren]

Braid's stuff I've played is top notch. His holes at Deal are superb, Brora is brilliant and I love Hankley, though I recall it is both Braid and Colt. Other courses I know he has had input but I am unclear just what he did.

But is he more underrated than Tom Simpson? I don't think so.

[Ken Moum]

I can't tell you how many times I've played a course in the UK that I loved and found out later it was Braid.
I just assumed he designed them all

I felt the same way after my first (only) trip to Scotland.

Loved Brora.  Liked Boat a lot. And Nairn, Nairn Dunbar, Lundin etc. It did seem as if every other course we played was a Braid.

Headed back next week for a month and looking forward to Fortrose & Rosemarkie, Scotscraig, Dunbar, Golspie, Luffness, Bruntsfield, Fraserburgh... well, you get the point.

K

[Niall C]

Tom D

Fair point about Braid's work being mainly UK although given how productive he was I imagine that if you were to tot up the courses he did on the continent they may match a lot of the other guys in terms of numbers. With regards to changes, I suspect Braid's work might have been changed less than say someone like Colt or MacKenzie, for a couple of reasons those being that Braid laid out a lot of courses for what you might term average clubs that due to lack of funds or maybe ambition have quite happily stuck with what they have got, and secondly because his routings were so strong there would be less reason to make significant changes. That's just my perception and could very easily be wrong.

Sean

Not aware of Simpson having a pop at Braid directly although MacKenzie clearly did (even if it wasn't published in his lifetime). I also don't know if he was ever considered more penal than the others in the sense of the degree of difficulty of the course. I think they could all design ball busters but perhaps Braid's designs were less strategic with his left and right bunkering on the drives and at the greens although he did generally position his bunkers in such a way that one side was more favourable than the other and of course the positioning of the hole on the green dictated a favoured line with the drive. Very simple but very effective.

I agree with you though in that when we look back at that era we tend to take our cue from the gca literature which of course was written by Simpson, Colt, MacK etc.

Niall

[Niall C]

I believe Ian Andrew had him ranked #19 in his excellent rankings a few years back. That seems to be about right.

Nigel

I must confess I'd struggle to name 18 other architects let alone 18 that were better than Braid. With respect to Ian, and I know he has worked and travelled over here a fair bit, I wonder if his rankings aren't a wee bit North American-centric. For instance where does Stanley Thompson come in that list  .

Niall

[Niall C]

I can't tell you how many times I've played a course in the UK that I loved and found out later it was Braid.
I just assumed he designed them all

Jeff

You're not wrong, I've experienced that a great many times. The guy was hugely prodigious in the amount of design work he did, and while there was a lot of redesign work with simple (but extensive) bunker schemes he also designed an awful lot of courses from scratch.

Scott

Agreed about Simpson being underestimated, and I say that without having played much of his work, however I sense that Simpson is now beginning to get some long overdue credit. He also wasn't nearly as prodigious as Braid and for that reason alone I'd still say Braid is the more underestimated.

Niall

[Sean_A]

Niall

No, I never read any pops at Braid by Simpson, but his general disdain for these guys was quite clear.  I agree, history of gca is largely perceived thru the lense of the Oxbridge set so it must be looked at with some measure of distrust.  On the other hand, these guys were damn good and set a very high bar which I don't think has ever been surpassed.  You can't have everything.  

Tom D

I don't think St Enodoc can be called a Braid routing.  He is probably the main man there, but other important stuff was done and existed previously.  Pennard isn't a total Braid routing either, but it is clear that the course is mainly his.  I don't really know about Perranporth, but I highly suspect this is close to a Braid original.  Brora I suspect is not that much of Braid.  I would like to know more about Burnside as well. Same for Wallasey as it was meant to be Braid course before the Hawtree/Taylor work in the late 30s.  I think half the course was altered.

Thomas

When I was a member of a Braid course I tried to join the society, but could get no answer.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean

Re Brora - the original design was done by Sutherland, first nine holes and then later extended by him, however the routing went the opposite way to the way it does now (from memory) so when Braid redesigned it, I think he did exactly that with a completely new routing.

Burnside - Braid certainly did a comprehensive redesign of the championship course c.1925 (?) that took in some of the Burnside so I guess he must have effectively redesigned them both together. Rich G will no better I would think.

Niall

[Niall C]

Don't forget about the James Braid Golf Trail(s):

http://golf.visitscotland.com/home_of_golf/james_braid.aspx

DT

Thanks for that. You know a lot of those courses listed are redesigns however his redesigns could be fairly comprehensive as I said about Brora. There's also quite a few that he designed from scratch that aren't on there. The one that was however that I noticed was Glenbervie which I played recently. A fantastic track near Stirling that was built c.1932. When I played there recently there was nothing to tell me who designed the course so its interesting to see that they are part of the Braid Society. Just shows you how little concerned UK clubs are about their history.

Niall   

[Nigel Islam]

I believe Ian Andrew had him ranked #19 in his excellent rankings a few years back. That seems to be about right.

Nigel

I must confess I'd struggle to name 18 other architects let alone 18 that were better than Braid. With respect to Ian, and I know he has worked and travelled over here a fair bit, I wonder if his rankings aren't a wee bit North American-centric. For instance where does Stanley Thompson come in that list  .

Niall

Probably a fair point, but I think Stanley Thompson may be more of a North American equivalent to Braid. I've never played the work of either so I am by no means an expert.  He did have Alison, Colt, and Simpson ranked ahead of Braid so it was not all continent biased. Here is the link:

http://thecaddyshack.blogspot.com/2007/07/final-list.html

[Jim McCann]

Thomas

I've been a member of the James Braid Golfing Society for several years now.

Regular golfing get togethers are held during the year at a variety of venues such as Brora, Royal Dornoch and Lundin Links.

I'm at Heathrow airport at the moment en route to a golfing engagement in Belgium so don't have access to this year's program but I'll post some details in due course.

Cheers.

[Niall C]

Jim

I'd also be interested to get more details.

Thanks

Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Thomas

I've been a member of the James Braid Golfing Society for several years now.

Regular golfing get togethers are held during the year at a variety of venues such as Brora, Royal Dornoch and Lundin Links.

I'm at Heathrow airport at the moment en route to a golfing engagement in Belgium so don't have access to this year's program but I'll post some details in due course.

Cheers.

Jim,

Thank you. Very kind. Have a good time playing in Belgium. Be sure to tell us where you played and post some thoughts on the courses.

All the best

[Mark_Rowlinson]

My home club, Wilmslow, has some Braid in it - and a lot of other architects, too. But it is proud of its Braid connection and members are entitled to low-cost golf at many other Braid courses and their members at our course. It's a nice touch and encourages us to visit other courses with Braid connections.

[David_Tepper]

"But it is proud of its Braid connection and members are entitled to low-cost golf at many other Braid courses and their members at our course. It's a nice touch and encourages us to visit other courses with Braid connections."

Mark R. -

Yes, I saw a memo about that a few years ago in the Golspie clubhouse. As I recall, if you are a member at a participating Braid club, you can play the other Braid clubs at the "guest of member" rate. I have yet to take advantage of that and I probably should.

DT
 

[Thomas Dai]

I believe Braids invoice for laying-out Brora has been framed by the club and now hangs on the Clubhouse wall. £30, or some similar amount as I recall.

Another thread herein led me to look at Mullingar GC in Ireland. A Braid course.

This is what MGC's website says -

"The story of how James Braid designed this marvelous course has gone down in Irish folklore. Brought over from Scotland by the old Dublin boat train from Glasgow, he arrived at Mullingar with the early morning dew, and after a little "liquid refreshment" to enliven his flagging energy, simply asked for "a hatchet and three dozen wooden tees". Then, before the astonished eyes of the founder members, he simply chopped and hacked his way into the middle of the then formidable gorse. With his trademark walrus moustache flapping in the wind, in four hours flat he had "pegged off" the now famous eighteen holes and greens, using the little wooden golf tees as markers. He then simply pointed to where the clubhouse should be built, handed the members his bill, and stepped back into his motorcar for the return journey to Dublin.

This story by itself would be incredible enough, given the totally incredible amounts of money and man-hours that are now spent on course design, but it doesn't end here. As the course was nearing completion, someone suddenly realized that no provision had been made for any sand traps. An urgent telegram was sent to the unflappable Braid, asking him to return forthwith and "finish" his design. By return, a telegram winged its way to the members. "Play your new course for a month, and where you see the most divot marks, that's where you put your bunkers!" As far as is known, that is exactly what was done, and a more sinister and wickedly placed set of sand traps you would be hard pushed to find anywhere!"

I trust the good members at Mullingar GC, which looks ever so splendid from its website, don't mind these words being quoted here. Such a lovely description of laying-out a course and then bunkering it.

All the best.

[David_Tepper]

"I believe Braids invoice for laying-out Brora has been framed by the club and now hangs on the Clubhouse wall. £30, or some similar amount as I recall."

Thomas D. -

Not sure about Brora, but I know Braid's invoice (for the work he did there) and photo are on the wall in Golspie's clubhouse.

DT