Trump International Golf Links profile is posted ...

[Jason Thurman]

via Imgflip Meme Maker

It sure does look like a cool course, and I haven't heard a single review that wasn't at least very good.

[Niall C]

Steve

He started it 

To my eye that 2nd green does look awkward, but I haven't seen it in person.  18th looks odd too. 

Actuallly Paul, you're bang on. Not just the greens but a lot of the fairways don't really tie in all that gracefully. Abrupt interchange between face of dune and fairway. No subtle toes running into fairway, or at least if there were they were to subtle for me to spot 

Very surprised Ran picking Balmedie over Muirfield but each to their own.

Niall

[Mark Bourgeois]

I don't think Ran ever has been a supporter of Muirfield, so his regard for Trump may not be all that:

Last story: in 1983, the Morrissett Gang of Five headed for Scotland (Sandy our dog was alas not included). We played in order Turnberry, Dornoch, The Old Course at St. Andrews, and Muirfield. To a person, we felt Muirfield was the weakest of the group. If one thinks of the four properties, Muirfield’s is by far the least compelling and we didn’t think the architecture made up enough for it. We arrived back home to the new issue of GOLF Magazine proclaiming that Muirfield was no. 1 in the world. Needless to say, we lost the plot and debate ensued for weeks over the dinner table as to this apparent outrage. My personal gut key was that I had been dragged off The Old Course and Dornoch after 36 and 54 plus holes in a day. Same for Turnberry. Yet at Muirfield, we played 18 and I was happy to go.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ran's report was an interesting read and his comments give an interesting point of view. The presentation of the fairways and the panic overseed with rye does not bode well however. I hope I am wrong and the course gets the chance to play like a true links course should so fingers crossed.

Jon

[Steve Lapper]

Steve

He started it 

To my eye that 2nd green does look awkward, but I haven't seen it in person.  18th looks odd too. 

Actuallly Paul, you're bang on. Not just the greens but a lot of the fairways don't really tie in all that gracefully. Abrupt interchange between face of dune and fairway. No subtle toes running into fairway, or at least if there were they were to subtle for me to spot 

Niall,



Very surprised Ran picking Balmedie over Muirfield but each to their own.

Niall,

   I disagree a bit and think it nitpicking to declare them "abrupt." The immense scale of those dune do not permit, nor promote a flat horizon front in most green sites. Absent artificially pushing tons more dirt, and sculpting down the magnificent dunescapes, getting any more of an "au natural" out of holes would be ridiculous. Holes 3,4(unless you want constant flooding  )6, 8, 9,13,14,15 and 17 are prime examples. Some of these are "pocketed"nicely into the dunes, others slightly raised against what must have been the previous ground elevations. This latter feature is found everywhere throughout prominent Scottish and Irish links only their "toe-ins" have been laying there for over a century or so....plenty of time to settle and provide a better aesthetic fit.

  While certainly far from anything flat, this property screams for green sites that find their location hard by and beneath the shadows of those towering dunes. Muirfield, TOC, Dornoch and Turnberry don't have these majestic horizontal features to compete and contend with. Thus, it's much easier to find the horizontal "tie-in" that you pine for. All the wonderful GB&I links have a few pushed-up greens (Muirfield has a large # ).

   If you want a look that ties in better, I'd suggest those will be on the 2nd course that routes around and through the Balmedie Dunes.
We golfers are fortunate to have, if it's going to exist in this property, a course whose features fit so pleasantly among such a dramatic setting.

  Lastly, this whole debate over the use of ryegrass is moot going forward as it was used as overseed to get the course ready for it's(a tad too early ) opening. Over time I'd predict that the fairways will be fescue.

[Tom_Doak]

  Lastly, this whole debate over the use of ryegrass is moot going forward as it was used as overseed to get the course ready for it's(a tad too early ) opening. Over time I'd predict that the fairways will be fescue.

Steve:

That's just great but I believe we should judge a course based on what's in the ground, and not on what someone else [who has no formal training about turf management] predicts will happen someday in the future.  Especially since the trend has actually been in the opposite direction.

[Paul_Turner]

No matter how good this course is, it will always have a terrible name.

Or, at least, it will have a terrible name till its second owner takes over.

Yes would Pine Valley be number one as "Crump National".

It's tricky to find good names for new courses.

[Jim Nugent]

I think it's a good name.  Draws instant identification/interest.  Since the course is clearly excellent, this will work to TI's favor. 

[Connor Dougherty]

Jason,
What parts of this thread have not applied to GCA? As far as I've seen there's been hardly any discussion in this thread that does not apply to GCA and has been a reasonable critique of the golf course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve Lapper,

The people I know, who have played the golf course, all had positive things to say about the golf course.

None of the people I know, who played the course, who discussed the course with me, ever brought up Donald Trump, choosing instead to focus on and discuss the merits of the golf course.

I never heard people interested in GCA discussing the personalities and personal issues of the likes of other developers such as Jack Lupton, Herb Kohler, Mike Keiser, Dick Youngscap, Roger Hansen, Lowell Schulman, Mike Pascucci and Ken Bakst , all of whom produced memorable courses.  Are they all without any flaws ?

One would have to ask why the focus on the developer of this project ?
Is it because they can find little at fault with the golf course ?

I view many of the comments as nothing more than petty whining !

[Jon Wiggett]

  Lastly, this whole debate over the use of ryegrass is moot going forward as it was used as overseed to get the course ready for it's(a tad too early ) opening. Over time I'd predict that the fairways will be fescue.

Steve:

That's just great but I believe we should judge a course based on what's in the ground, and not on what someone else [who has no formal training about turf management] predicts will happen someday in the future.  Especially since the trend has actually been in the opposite direction.

Steve,

I am well aware that ryegrass is used as an overseed in many parts of the world but have never heard of it been used as such here in Scotland when the desired end result was fescue fairways. I do not believe you can eradicate ryegrass here even with spraying. It was not part of their original plan and I suspect was done for visual reasons as it is normal for fescue swards to look very thin for the first few years and they never really get dense in the same way many other sports turf swards do.

I agree the course should be judged on its merits and for me the presentation is part of the equation. The course would look more at home in Florida than it does in dunes in Scotland. I hope it will change in time. Having seen the course in person it looks pretty good but is not an all world course as it is poorly tied in to the surrounds and is over bunkered (you could easily remove 50% of the bunkers) The greens themselves are however well thought out from an internal contour side.

Tom D,

just confirming what you said, you can 'roam' across the course as long as you do not interfere with the golfers or do any damage

Jon

[Jon Wiggett]

You can't eradicate Ryegrass?? So unless they returf or reseed it is going to always play like others have described? Surely that can't be the long term plan...

Brian,

yes it is possible to eradicate ryegrass but I have never seen or heard of it been done in the UK or with a fescue sward if the ryegrass is a significant % of the sward. Fescue always looks very thin for the first few seasons but it still plays okay.

Jon

[Ally Mcintosh]

Jon,

It's been done more than once on Irish links courses I know. We had certain agronomists promoting green / rye on our links fairways.

However, I believe it was a fairly painful process over a few years.

Ally

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,

It's been done more than once on Irish links courses I know. We had certain agronomists promoting green / rye on our links fairways.

However, I believe it was a fairly painful process over a few years.

Ally

Interesting Ally. You say you 'believe it was a fairly painful process over a few years' so what are the chance of a course that was not prepared to go through a year or two of cosmetic issues going through a few years of transitional pain?

Jon

[Ben Lovett]

To transition from Ryegrass to fescue it is likely that they will use Rescue herbicide. It is a newish product and from what I am aware is being used on most top links and heathland courses in the UK, although not a one hit wonder a steady program of Rescue and fescue overseeding should move the turf toward the finer varieties required.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Jon,

It's been done more than once on Irish links courses I know. We had certain agronomists promoting green / rye on our links fairways.

However, I believe it was a fairly painful process over a few years.

Ally

Interesting Ally. You say you 'believe it was a fairly painful process over a few years' so what are the chance of a course that was not prepared to go through a year or two of cosmetic issues going through a few years of transitional pain?

Jon

Pretty high I'd say.

I can't believe that the long term intention is to stick with rye grass when the original seed was a fescue mix and there is a big movement towards fescue at the moment.

Guess it might depend on whether there is a desire from the owner for green and cross-hatched mowing... Still can't see it though...

[Steve Lapper]

All,

   I'm not interested in getting into any "pissing" match with anyone over turf maintenance practices. As Tom Doak says, "I've got no formal training" in the field. I never argued "pro" for the use of rye grasses and certainly not "con against fescues. I strongly believe the site deserves 100% fescues on it's fairway surfaces. I am 100% factually sure that was the original intent.

  The premium paid on having the course ready to open last summer (per demands from it's owner) included the overseeding of rye grasses when last year's excessively rainy and cold spring retarded the grass growth to spotty on certain fairways. Add in the toll of heavy play and the operation was left with few options. Ultimately, they did decide to close earlier last fall so as to tend to the fairway issues. What I do know is that the people who have the owner's ear (inc. the architect) have all mentioned their desire for purer fescue fairways.

  John Bambury, their talented young Superintendent (and grow-in Super) has mentioned that he believes he can eventually supplant the rye grasses with fescues, if desired, and I have every reason to believe Trump will likely do so in the future. He wants this course to be universally well-received (at least by those willing to judge it on it's merits) and is unlikely to ignore any potential positive changes he can make to get it there.

  Are there a few too many bunkers, especially on the par 5s?... Perhaps. I think that's a valid critique. A mysteriously adjacent and quizzical fairway on the 10th?...absolutely. These are fair, albeit minor, knocks. Can they be remedied, if ordered, over time.....definitely.

  Yes, at present, it is 100% legitimate to criticize the site for the existence of non-links-like grasses! What is equally critical to understand and fair to mention is that EVERY new course opens with some flaws, some worse than others. It's happened at the likes of Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal, Kiawah Ocean, and a myriad of other excellent moderns. It will continue in the future at other to-be-builts as well. Capable and passionate owners invest themselves along with their egos and wallets, into making changes for the positive. Trump Scotland is no different in that regard.

   Some of you (not you Tom )who just find whatever reason to exercise personal vindictiveness really have little clue about the viabilities of routing an exciting 18 holes through the scale of those Dunes. Short of scalping down a few too many of them to artificially create more blind shots or other architectural features,  Hawtree did a masterful job of preserving the drama of the setting itself an instead laced it with holes whose architecture compliments, rather than competes, with the venue. Very few natural sites are so compelling as to demand a more neutral golf architecture laid upon them. This is one of them.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Steve,

I agree 100% with everything you write above... apart from your last paragraph which I don't fully understand.

I believe more architectural features would have been preserved by doing a little less in places. There was a lot of sand moved in to the fairway corridors from outside.... and there was a lot of sand stabilised outside those corridors. My main question (and possible criticism) would be was all of that necessary in all areas?

Of course, without being intimate with the project, I'll never know. That said, I can think of quite a few reasons (e.g. high water table, widening the dune valley etc...) that it would have been needed in some places for sure...

Look - bottom line is it's going to be a great golf course. It plays it a little safe maybe but it will actually have less detractors in the big, wide world outside GCA by taking that approach.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Not only am I not a turf expert, I'm not much more than a turf novice. Anyway, I believe architecture and conditioning are two separate things, that conditioning ebbs and flows and can be fixed whereas architecture is the bones and, if the conditioning be appropriate, represents the greatest possibility for the course — with one important exception: the quality of the turf is a critical factor -- in a functional, playing sense -- to a links being a links. The turf binds to the architecture of a links and is what brings out the inherent architectural qualities of a links.

I took, and take, to heart Malcolm Campbell's words about maintenance practices and outright changes to turf grasses leading to the conversion of links courses into not-a-links courses.

Here is the recap and discussion of Campbell's speech at BUDA '08:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35194.0.html

If TIGL has rye grass fairways it is NOT a links! It is a not-a-links.

[Steve Lapper]

Steve,

I agree 100% with everything you write above... apart from your last paragraph which I don't fully understand.

I believe more architectural features would have been preserved by doing a little less in places. There was a lot of sand moved in to the fairway corridors from outside.... and there was a lot of sand stabilised outside those corridors. My main question (and possible criticism) would be was all of that necessary in all areas?

Ally,

The stabilization you refer to was 100% absolutely necessary. While I'm sure the environmentalist detractors here will scream, without the transferring of sand and the planting of 5,000,000 sprigs of Marrum grasses to stabilize the Dunes, any exercise at building any golf course here would have been futile and temporary at best.

Additionally, what I find so humorous is how so many here fell in instant love with Dye's Whistling Straights when it opened because it "so improved an otherwise drab. lifeless property." They too over bunkered (by the hundreds   ) , planted rye-grasses, and made huge dunes. Scorned for it....not really!

Of course, Balmedie has the natural setting and the architect did his best to do as small scale alteration as feasible and is now attacked for "overdoing it!" Go figure.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Steve,

I agree 100% with everything you write above... apart from your last paragraph which I don't fully understand.

I believe more architectural features would have been preserved by doing a little less in places. There was a lot of sand moved in to the fairway corridors from outside.... and there was a lot of sand stabilised outside those corridors. My main question (and possible criticism) would be was all of that necessary in all areas?

Ally,

The stabilization you refer to was 100% absolutely necessary. While I'm sure the environmentalist detractors here will scream, without the transferring of sand and the planting of 5,000,000 sprigs of Marrum grasses to stabilize the Dunes, any exercise at building any golf course here would have been futile and temporary at best.

Additionally, what I find so humorous is how so many here fell in instant love with Dye's Whistling Straights when it opened because it "so improved an otherwise drab. lifeless property." They too over bunkered (by the hundreds   ) , planted rye-grasses, and made huge dunes. Scorned for it....not really!

Of course, Balmedie has the natural setting and the architect did his best to do as small scale alteration as feasible and is now attacked for "overdoing it!" Go figure.

Steve,

I'm afraid I don't necessarily agree this time. I don't believe the entire site had to be sprigged (there are no open sand areas left at all) and I'm not so sure all of the valleys had to have imported sand to the extent they did.

Money allowed that approach (as it allowed wall to wall irrigation).

Still, that quibble aside, I hope the course matures as it should and that it melds in to the landscape naturally over the next few years...

[Jason Thurman]

Jason,
What parts of this thread have not applied to GCA? As far as I've seen there's been hardly any discussion in this thread that does not apply to GCA and has been a reasonable critique of the golf course.

What part of the words "about to" don't you understand?

There's a train that always follows the mention of Trump's name and any review of Trump International, and it's never late. Give it a day or two.

[Tom_Doak]

Yes, at present, it is 100% legitimate to criticize the site for the existence of non-links-like grasses! What is equally critical to understand and fair to mention is that EVERY new course opens with some flaws, some worse than others. It's happened at the likes of Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal, Kiawah Ocean, and a myriad of other excellent moderns.

Well, not all of them, actually.    

If there was a "flaw" at Pacific Dunes it has still yet to be fixed, because nothing has been changed there, and I don't remember anyone really mentioning anything.  They do have to put sand back into the bunkers fairly often because it is so windy; they're not alone in that regard.

[Paul_Turner]

Pot bunkers look and work best on low profile courses like Muirfield and Luffness.

From some of Ran's photos:  looking way down from elevated tees into clusters and lines of pots...isn't everything revealed at a glance?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yes, at present, it is 100% legitimate to criticize the site for the existence of non-links-like grasses! What is equally critical to understand and fair to mention is that EVERY new course opens with some flaws, some worse than others. It's happened at the likes of Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal, Kiawah Ocean, and a myriad of other excellent moderns.

Well, not all of them, actually.    

They do have to put sand back into the bunkers fairly often because it is so windy; they're not alone in that regard.

Tom,

Would you consider that to be a design flaw, or something that was expected from the get go.

What would you estimate, in terms of the amount of sand needed to replaced on each course, each year ?

And, what does that translate to in terms of cost (material and labor)