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Connor Dougherty

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Behind the Green
« on: July 12, 2013, 11:16:20 AM »
I'm amazed how many clubs have no features behind the putting surface to promote shotmaking/increase strategy. Even many of the courses widely considered to be architectural gems fail to do this.

I'm convinced that part of the reason that TOC is so great is that it was designed to be played in both directions, meaning that the short game areas behind the green make for very interesting recovery shots. The same goes for Bally Bandon Sheep Ranch, where the greens were designed to be approached from all sorts of angles, which makes for some of the best short game areas I've ever seen.

What courses have great short game areas behind the putting surface? Examples can be of anything, from the use of hazards and bunkers to short grass and contours. Why is this a forgotten trait in golf courses? If the green is built up and slopes from back to front, is long grass the best option behind the green?

I'd love to get some more opinions on this.
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Adam Clayman

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Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2013, 11:44:13 AM »
Connor, All thoughtful designs have an 360 degree view of the recovery options around the greens. When archies started containing the errant shot, with mounding behind greens, they apparently stopped considering recovery shots as imaginative shot making.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Ben Voelker

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Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2013, 12:53:38 PM »
Connor,

The 11th at Cal Club is a great example of the use of a hazard for the errant shot through the green.

Mark McKeever

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Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2013, 01:25:36 PM »
Aronimink has lots of cool shaved features behind the greens.  Basically, it seems that every side of the greens were created with the same degree of attention.  Not many courses can say that.

Mark
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2013, 01:56:46 PM »
I recall Killian and Nugent putting very little pizazz in the back of their greens, and was told the reason there are so few greens with good stuff behind them is that so few golfers ever get there.....so in essence, for most its a waste of hazard money (construction, maintenance) and an under appreciated scenic view.  For architects often on a limited budget (and who isn't these days.....) its hard to argue with the basic logic, at least more than a few times per round. 

Of course, if you are merely talking shaved areas, the only thing really holding that back is the normal back to front slope of greens, together perhaps with the modern trend of elevating them, and adding in pretty steep slopes to save fill back there.  At Medinah No. 3, hole 1, Rees wanted a chipping area and had to elevate it several feet to make the chipping work out right.  That always looked a little forced to me, and many other existing greens would be in the same boat.

As to the reverse theory, it may be true at TOC.  That said, how many architects these days even put much contour in the front approach areas of greens?  With the aerial game, that art has largely been lost.

George Thomas wrote the most about the backs of greens, I think.  His theory was that shaved grass especially on long approaches was easier to recover from, and should be used because a shot that goes a bit long is aggressive and a better shot than one that comes up short.  Thus, deep rough and an uphill pitch from behind the typical green might discourage aggressive play.

Ross was supposedly famous for his lack of back hazards, although I think he built more than that strict stereotype said.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark McKeever

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Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2013, 02:12:36 PM »
Jeff, Interesting you bring that up about Ross.  Most of the time when I think of Ross hazards long of the green, I am thinking of shaved off collection areas.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2013, 06:03:15 PM »
Connor,

You may find that the "Golden Age" courses and courses from the early part of the 20th Century paid close attention to the area behind the green.

At a 1927 course that I'm very familiar with six holes have bunkers behind the green, two had creeks behind the green, five had swales behind the green, one had a steep upslope behind the green and the rest, just rough.

I think the reason for those features behind the green was the nature of the game in 1927.

Courses were not overly irrigated and the game was on the ground, thus it was typical for balls to run through the green and end up behind the green, where they'd encounter those features.

Andrew Buck

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Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2013, 06:16:13 PM »
anecdotally, I'm not sure I ever recall playing a course where it's easier to get up and down from long than short.  While I agree, very little attention has been paid to area's over the green, since the overwhelming majority of holes have greens that slope from back to front, combined with less maintenance focus on these areas, and the often misguided notions of planting trees or shrubs behind greens, it's almost always a tougher save from long for me.

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2013, 06:27:07 PM »
I saw a new photo from behind of one of our greens at Wolf Point recently.
It looked great, better than most modern courses from the front.
You might see it later in the photo tour thread.

If I posted pictures of all our greens you'd have a hard time identifying the normal angle of play.
Which was one of our goals - to be able to have fun playing from any angle - and to have the ideal angle vary from hole to hole and day to day.
Try to do that on a traditional modern green that slopes from back to front!

Cheers


Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2013, 10:37:42 PM »
anecdotally, I'm not sure I ever recall playing a course where it's easier to get up and down from long than short.  While I agree, very little attention has been paid to area's over the green, since the overwhelming majority of holes have greens that slope from back to front, combined with less maintenance focus on these areas, and the often misguided notions of planting trees or shrubs behind greens, it's almost always a tougher save from long for me.

One of the most interesting features of the Redan hole at North Berwick is that it's much easier to get up and down from over the back of the green than from anywhere else.  Most people don't even notice this, because they never ever think about playing long deliberately.  I would agree with Jeff Brauer's assessment that most architects assume most players are rarely over the green, so they don't think about complicating recovery shots from over the back.

There are some great over-the-back areas on some of our courses, Rock Creek in particular.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2013, 10:54:22 PM »
Tom Doak,

Ditto NGLA

Brian Finn

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Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2013, 01:06:32 AM »

There are some great over-the-back areas on some of our courses, Rock Creek in particular.

Just played 36 at Rock Creek today, and this is absolutely the case. I thought it was even more meaningful here for me, because at 4,500 feet elevation, I found myself long quite often.  I adjusted fairly well to the elevation by mid first round, but still went long far more than normal, and was faced with a number of difficult decisions (putt, flop, bump & run) from just beyond the green throughout the day. One of many things about this course that made it incredibly fun to play.
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DMoriarty

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Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2013, 02:43:57 AM »
Photo from behind the 14th green at Rock Creek.

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

David Davis

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Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2013, 02:54:36 AM »
Another point that's interesting about this is how it ties into course managements. There are so many courses that are set up semi-one dimensionally. By this I mean all the hazards are set up in front (or at least most of them). Figure that out in advance and just always take an extra club on your approaches and you never even flirt with them. Or vice versa, notice they are all long and always leave the ball right on our a little short. Great for scoring assuming you can chip and putt and interesting to notice.

Indeed, most of the great courses require you to be right on or be faced with far more testing shots from everywhere.
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Thomas Dai

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Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2013, 04:44:50 AM »
Personally I have always liked looking at greens from the sides and from the rear of a hole, particularly close to the green.

I find I can appreciate the delicate nuances of the contouring, the design, the construction, the playability and the course management needed in plotting shots into greens after having previously viewed a green from the side or from the rear, though not while actually playing the hole however, as this can lead to slow play, which is bad form, but you do sometimes get a preview peak at holes, especially the greens, that you're about to play by looking across from the hole your currently playing, and not just of the days flag position either.

Not really sure if the story is true or false, but I was once told that Ben Hogan, when visiting a tournament course he'd not been to before, would walk the course in reverse order, ie from the rear of the 18th green all the way around to the 1st tee, to ascertain the best playing angles etc.

All the best.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2013, 09:29:28 AM »
I seem to recall a great talk Mr. Cooper gave at Jasper Park about Thompson's addition of rear bunkers over the years he tweaked that elegant design.

My initial feeling was that he had done so, after meeting Dr. Mackenzie, and after the good doctor's global successes.

Another synapse recalls their justification was to cause issues for the overly aggressive.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Andrew Buck

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Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2013, 09:41:39 AM »
Photo from behind the 14th green at Rock Creek.



That is striking.  Is 14 a long par 4 or a reachable par 5?

ChipRoyce

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Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2013, 09:47:48 AM »
Great topic - I've always envisioned a golf hole in which an option is to hit beyond the center point of the green (rear, left or right).

If I ever have the luxury of building my own golf course, I would attempt at least 2 holes in which the golfer can consider a shot past the green / pin and come back to the pin. A good option for a par 5? Short Par 4?

Andrew Buck

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Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2013, 09:56:24 AM »
Great topic - I've always envisioned a golf hole in which an option is to hit beyond the center point of the green (rear, left or right).

If I ever have the luxury of building my own golf course, I would attempt at least 2 holes in which the golfer can consider a shot past the green / pin and come back to the pin. A good option for a par 5? Short Par 4?

It can be a great feature, imo, on a reachable par 5.  Essentially, make the golfer be sure they can get the ball for the pin if they are going to give it a go in 2.  Make it a very tough birdie from just short to about 85 yards, but if you overcook it on-line, it shouldn't be an issue. 

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2013, 11:09:32 AM »
Just typing out loud here, but is it possible that the RTJ/Wilson era of elevated greens contributed to the lack of back side designing?  And that modern design is gradually changing that trend?

Over the last 25 years or so, I sense that greens are generally NOT built on as high a footpad, mostly because there are more public courses and every foot of green height equals a foot deeper bunker, not usually associated with public golf. 

Add in the resurgence of chipping areas after the '92 Open at Pebble, where the USGA first used chipping areas, and it lead to a design trend of greens are built lower with fw around parts of them, with the emphasis on chipping options.

Lastly, as the front to back slope of greens has gradually reduced from 4% in the 60's, to sub 2% since the turn of the century, and I imagine there are fewer modern lob shots from behind a green than there might have been in earlier times.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2013, 01:07:35 PM »
Jeff,

I feel just the opposite.

The ODG's elevated their greens because, amongst other reasons,  they didn't have sophisticated drainage methods, yet many of their elevated greens had design features behind them.

So, the creation of an elevated green is, of itself, no reason to abandon behind the green features.

i suspect that with the advent of improved, to wall to wall irrigation systems, which probably parallel the careers of RTJ/DW, the ground game was becoming a thing of he past, thus the practicality of introducing a feature that was almost vestigial in nature, but still costly to create, fell out of fashion.

I suspect that the changing nature of the game and cost, rather than elevated greens are the primary factors behind the diminishment of behind the green features.

Jud_T

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Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2013, 01:16:27 PM »
Kingsley Club 2nd hole.  The back bunker is by far the best miss on this short par 3.   Right and particularly left are virtually impossible up and downs to most pins and can lead to a big number and there's very little area short that's any good. 
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2013, 01:34:05 PM »
Chip,

On # 7 at NGLA, going long on your second shot when the pin is cut at the mid-point of the green or back, is more than an option, it's a preference.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2013, 02:29:32 PM »
Surprised not to have seen mention yet of TOC in this thread.

I've heard it said more than a few times that the best place to miss the par-5 14th green at TOC is over the back. Assuming the pin position that day is appropriate for it of course.

I wouldn't care to go over the back of the 11th however, although I do seem to remember Payne Stewart making an excellent up-n-down there off a very hard, bare lie. I think it was the year he finished second to Nick Faldo.

And many players go long and left on the 17th and come back in from the rear of the green.

As to the 18th, I'm sure many us well remember Big Jack in the playoff against Doug Sanders.

All the best.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 02:31:24 PM by Thomas Dai »

BCrosby

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Re: Behind the Green
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2013, 03:06:11 PM »
There were exchanges about this issue from time to time pre-WWI.

J. H. Taylor believed that bunkers should not be located behind greens because they discouraged aggressive play. In the same vein, many professionals of the era did not like the Road Hole because of the proximity of the road behind the green.

Bob