Ran's challenge

[Thomas Dai]

I think North Berwick should be in if it doesn't include those Open Championship qualifying tees on its regular scorecard.... If it does, then it should be excluded.... (this should be consistent when judging all courses... i.e. the "back" tees as broadcast)

We are surprisingly short on links courses and high on heathlands.... I'd suggest Strandhill but I'm not sure the quality is quite there to displace anyone...

I haven't seen Edgbaston but I might question it as Arble whimsy?

Also think we need to see more American & international courses - there must be some to displace a few of those above?... Let's keep it to 25 any which way...

Tend to agree with Ally here.

"We are surprisingly short on links courses" - yip - as mentioned Dooks gets much praise, Golspie and Tain are quality gems, Pennard and Perranporth are unforgettable. Folk travel distances to play all of these although admittedly Golspie and Tain perhaps get visited more because Brora and Dornoch are nearby.

Not convinced about Edgbaston. There are quite a few courses less than 6,500 within 10-20 miles of Edgbaston/Birmingham that are probably superior. The lovely Lodge course at Enville, 6,472 from the tips comes immediately to mind, and, like it very much as I do, I can't see myself nominate that for best 50 in the world under 6,500. And then there's Blackwell at 6,283 par-70/SSSI 71. An SSSI higher than par is normally a good indicator of difficulty/quality.

I'd need a little more convincing to support either Elie, Camberly Heath, Cavendish, Kington, Knole Park, Parkstone, Prestbury, Southerndown (over Pennard from Wales??), Tandridge or Turfvaert good as they be, although I'd be happy to bow to the judgement of other GCA'ers who know them well.

Not sure about Marks idea to "On principle....disqualify any course that's hosted a flogger tournament, including Open qualifiers.". That I believe would mean no Beau Desert for example, and as I said in an earlier post, not having Beau Desert present would be like having a historic/classic/vintage motor race without a Ferrari, Maserati or Alfa Romeo on the grid. And Beau Desert is still under 6,500 for significant events, unlike others mentioned which may be included even though they have some way-back special occasional tees.

Jud,

in your summary list it might be an idea to state where the courses are located given that some clubs internationally have similar names. I think I know which one is meant but, for example, The Creek is also in Dubai and Maidstone is originally a town in Kent, England. Plus the confusingly named New Zealand GC is of course in Surrey, England!

All the best

[Jim McCann]

I’m amazed that nobody has yet mentioned the Machrie (6299 yards) as a contender for the list of the “world’s best 6,500 yard and under courses”.

Then again, I suppose if nominations depend on having played (or walked) the course in question then that might explain why this remote wee world class gem is such a glaring omission...

[Ally Mcintosh]

Well done Jim... Someone should have mentioned it...

David - Dooks is no longer under 6,500 since the Hawtree & Westenborg renovation / redesign...

[Jud_T]

We need clarification on the Medal tees at Pennard.

[Thomas Dai]

I’m amazed that nobody has yet mentioned the Machrie (6299 yards) as a contender for the list of the “world’s best 6,500 yard and under courses”.

Then again, I suppose if nominations depend on having played (or walked) the course in question then that might explain why this remote wee world class gem is such a glaring omission...

That's a good call Jim.

Although I've not been there, I certainly would like to one day, but what about Askernish then folks?

Now over 6,500 so no Dooks then. Fair enough.

ATB

[Ally Mcintosh]

We need clarification on the Medal tees at Pennard.

Club website says 6,800 yards off the "championship" tees, 6,276 off the medals.

Seeing as they are embracing extra length in advertising the course, they should most certainly be excluded.

[Sean_A]

Thomas

A lot of folks gravitate toward Enville.  About half the land is on good turf, but the design of the course is often very haphazard and without rhyme or reason.  No way I would get behind it as better than Edgbaston.  That doesn't mean I think Edgbaston is top 25 or whatever, just that folks make assumptions based on a name and sometimes it takes some digging to uncover the quality of the design.

Ally

So far as tweeking the list down, all I can say is with confidence I think Royal Worlington, Rye & Swinley Forest should be on the list.  With less confidence I think Beau Desert & Kington should be considered.  

Not knowing these other courses, but I would think Berkshire Red/Blue, Machrie, Pulbourough, West Sussex, White Bear, Pasa, Maidstone, Creek Club, Eastward Ho!, Parapara...Beach and Elie make strong cases.  Addington, Cavendish, Camberley Heath, Edgbaston, Southerndown, Worplesdon also make very good cases.  If there is space, several courses also make good cases: Machrihanish, Brora, Huntercombe, Liphook, New Zealand, Prestbury, Knole Park & Stoneham.  

Since part of the job of any golf course is to challenge all levels of players except for maybe touring pros, I think consideration should be given to courses which play quite tough for their yardage.  In which case Addington, Edgbaston, New Zealand, Worplesdon, Machrinhanish, Brora, Machrie, Southerndown and Elie (wind for links!) should perhaps be given another look for very serious consideration.  

So, just taking my stab at it:

Rye
Brancaster
Swinley Forest
Sacred 9
Beau Desert
Kington
Berkshire Red
Machrie
Pulborough
White Bear Yacht
Pasatiempo (is this really less than 6500?)
Maidstone
Creek club
Eastward Ho!
Parapara...Beach
Elie
Addington
New Zealand
Worplesdon
Machrihanish
Brora
Machrie
Southerndown
St Georges
Edgbaston (tee hee)

Though Golf de Spa and Old Elm are intriguing.  

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean

I agree on your notion that just a small handful are above reproach and would add Addy. Just a couple of clunkers on that course and 13-18 is just excellent.

On reputation Pulborough might qualify as well, both as Pulborough and as West Sussex.

[Sean_A]

Mark

The more I go back to Addy the less I like it.  Though for this purpose, it works very well because its tough as old boots. 

Hang on - has nobody checked the card for Saunton West?  I think it is 6403 (from memory- tee hee).  In the interest of getting more links in there because flat bellies like a challenge

Rye
Brancaster
Swinley Forest
Sacred 9
Beau Desert
Kington
Berkshire Red
Machrie
Pulborough
White Bear Yacht
Pasatiempo (is this really less than 6500?)
Maidstone
Creek club
Eastward Ho!
Parapara...Beach
Elie
Addington
New Zealand
Worplesdon
Machrihanish
Brora
Machrie
Southerndown
St Georges
Edgbaston (tee hee)
Saunton West



Ciao

[Jud_T]

Latest list, talk amongst yourselves...

Addington GC, Surrey UK
Askernish, South Uist, Scotland
Beau Desert, Staffordshire UK
Berkshire Red, Berkshire UK
Broadstone, Dorset UK
Brora, Sutherland, Scotland
Camberly Heath, Surrey UK
Cavendish, Derbyshire UK
CC Troy, NY
Eastward Ho!, Chatham, MA
Elie, Fife, Scotland
Fraserburgh, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Glens Falls, Queensbury, NY
Golf de Spa, Belgium
Huntercombe, Oxfordshire UK
Kawartha Golf & CC, Ontario, CA
Kington, Herefordshire, UK
Knole Park, Kent UK
Leatherstockings, Cooperstown, NY
Liphook, Hampshire, UK
Machrie, Isle of Islay, Scotland
Machrihanish, Argyll, Scotland
Maidstone, East Hampton, NY
New Zealand GC, Surrey, UK
Old Elm, Highland Park, IL
Paraparaumu Beach, New Zealand
Parkstone, Dorset, UK
Pasatiempo, Santa Cruz, CA
Prestbury, Cheshire, UK
Royal West Norfolk, UK
Rye, East Sussex, UK
Saunton West, North Devon UK
South Bend CC, IN
Southern Pines, NC
Southerndown, Bridgend, Wales
St. George's, East Setauket, NY
Stoneham, Hampshire, UK
Swinley Forest, Birkshire, UK
Tandridge, Surrey, UK
The Creek, Locust Valley, NY
Turfvaert, Rijsbergen, Netherlands
West Sussex, UK
White Bear Yacht Club, Dellwood, MN
Worplesdon, Surrey, UK

[Jud_T]

Sean,

Pasatiempo lists the Championship tees at exactly 6500.

[Paul_Turner]

Why isn't Berkshire Blue included?  There's not much to choose between it and the Red.

[Steve Lapper]

Did no one read an earlier post that the supposed rule of 6500yds isn't hard and fast, instead our conversation was centered on strategy found within the realm of 6500yds!!! The focus should be on strategic design!!

When you go off and make these lists and substitute an Old Elm for a Shoreacres or a CC of Troy for a Westhampton and omit the likes of Myopia Hunt, CC of Fairfield, St. Louis,Claremont, or a Roaring Gap....you produce a sub-standard meaningless list that adds little value or relativity.

The point isn't a hard cut-off of yardage, though if you must 6650 is far more relevant and inspirational. That way some true gems  (i.e..CPC, Fishers, Somerset Hills Lehigh) that deserve entry aren't excluded based on a mere 150yds (or simply the variance of tees across a course on less than 6800yds).

FWIW...Ran, Tuco, and myself might well try one day to lobby our panel to create and publish just such a list....so let's at leaast try our hardest to make it an exceptional one.
 

[Jud_T]

Steve,

Point taken, but most everyone has heard of Shoreacres, Fishers Island and Crystal Downs.  And why 6650?  There must be some really great tracks at 6700?  6500 is more than enough golf course for 5/6ths of the world's golfers and highlights some really good courses.  How many of those listed above have you played?

[Steve Lapper]

Steve,

Point taken, but most everyone has heard of Shoreacres, Fishers Island and Crystal Downs.  And why 6650?  There must be some really great tracks at 6700?  6500 is more than enough golf course for 5/6ths of the world's golfers and highlights some really good courses.  How many of those listed above have you played?

The idea was to find the best amidst a group that emphasizes strategy over length, brains over brawn and charm over size. The extra 150 yds is actually a # that is best representative of the net difference btw "members" tee placement and the tips of those courses. Like Rich Goodale said, using those tees closest to the preceding green fits the thesis Ran and myself were postulating. Our goal, btw was to reduce the focus on longer courses and dent the prominence of publicity for defending the game with sheer length.

For your edification, I've played all of those I've listed and 26 off your last posted list. You?

[Jud_T]

OK,

26 is pretty impressive, I'll admit.  I've played exactly 1!  But that's the point.  These are exactly the type of courses a guy like me should be seeking out.  In my hunt to bedpost notch in my misspent youth, I overlooked a bunch of really fun, less expensive gems.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Steve,

Point taken, but most everyone has heard of Shoreacres, Fishers Island and Crystal Downs.  And why 6650?  There must be some really great tracks at 6700?  6500 is more than enough golf course for 5/6ths of the world's golfers and highlights some really good courses.  How many of those listed above have you played?

The idea was to find the best amidst a group that emphasizes strategy over length, brains over brawn and charm over size. The extra 150 yds is actually a # that is best representative of the net difference btw "members" tee placement and the tips of those courses. Like Rich Goodale said, using those tees closest to the preceding green fits the thesis Ran and myself were postulating. Our goal, btw was to reduce the focus on longer courses and dent the prominence of publicity for defending the game with sheer length.

For your edification, I've played all of those I've listed and 26 off your last posted list. You?

I think both ideas are worthy ones, Steve. The thread title may be misrepresentative of how the thread has developed so maybe should be changed... But the thread should continue full steam ahead....

As for Rich's idea of the closest tees to the last green, this is incredibly worthy when actually designing a course. In fact, it's right up there as one of the most important considerations. However, it's no basis for a list of any sort.

[Mark Bourgeois]

"Our goal, btw was to reduce the focus on longer courses and dent the prominence of publicity for defending the game with sheer length."

Steve L,

Then why bother with yardage at all? It seems you already have in mind a list and are backfilling the criteria to ensure those courses fit. Anyway, many of these older courses have seen length added. On the logic, what's the difference between one course adding yardage to stretch out to 6,500 yards vs another that adds yardage to get to 6,800 yards, or even 6,900 yards? Some even have done this not to cater to floggers but rather to golfers.

[Jud_T]

Full disclosure- since as a silver lining this has turned into the best possible advert for Sean's fledgling travel business, I have it on good authority that all the warm pints I can down when I'm in country will be gratis...   

[Keith Grande]

Just a thought...using a strict yardage criteria may come into play as far as effort to walk the course, but as far as playability I think we need to consider topography and wind factors.  When I was in Ireland in May, there were heaps of holes in the 400-420 variety which were unreachable due to 30-40 MPH wind conditions, playing at 6300 yards or so.  For example, par four 10th hole at Tralee, caddie tells us unreachable.  Par four 2nd hole at Waterville, drive and three wood, well short of the green.  Par three at Waterville hit 4 iron at 140 yds.  I wore out 4 iron, hybrid and 3 wood hitting into par threes and fours all week.  I came home to the states and found courses above the yardage we are talking about eminently more playable.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Just a thought...using a strict yardage criteria may come into play as far as effort to walk the course, but as far as playability I think we need to consider topography and wind factors.  When I was in Ireland in May, there were heaps of holes in the 400-420 variety which were unreachable due to 30-40 MPH wind conditions, playing at 6300 yards or so.  For example, par four 10th hole at Tralee, caddie tells us unreachable.  Par four 2nd hole at Waterville, drive and three wood, well short of the green.  Par three at Waterville hit 4 iron at 140 yds.  I wore out 4 iron, hybrid and 3 wood hitting into par threes and fours all week.  I came home to the states and found courses above the yardage we are talking about eminently more playable.

Keith,

I guess that's why they could still hold The Irish Open at Ballybunion in 2002 at a length of 6,500 yards. But in many ways, that's the point. Showing that length isn't the be all and end all. A golf course can be great and challenging (through strategy or topography or elements) whilst still being short...

[ChipOat]

Taconic Golf Club in Williamstown, MA.  As with Rockaway and Inwood, I don't have the exact yardage in front of me, but, until I played Machrahanish (spell?), Brora and The Machrie, I thought it was the absolute best "short golf course", I had ever played - and it still might be.  If the recent restoration hasn't added too much length, it is a "Must".

If not already on the list, I also nominate the West Course at Merion.

Finally, does Prestwick's Medal Tee yardage make the cut?

How about Ekwanok in Manchester, VT.

Finally, Oahu CC in Honolulu is terrific if not too long.

[ChipOat]

JudT:

As Mason said to Dixon, "We have to draw the line someplace."

Taconic now 6808 from the tips; was < 6300 the first time I played it.

Oahu Country Club - 6041 from the back tees; EXCELLENT golf course, please add to list.

If 6650 is the real cut-off, add Rockaway Hunting Club, please.

Will have to check Ekwanok and Inwood; websites do not show the scorecard. 

[Steve Lapper]

"Our goal, btw was to reduce the focus on longer courses and dent the prominence of publicity for defending the game with sheer length."

Steve L,

Then why bother with yardage at all? It seems you already have in mind a list and are backfilling the criteria to ensure those courses fit. Anyway, many of these older courses have seen length added. On the logic, what's the difference between one course adding yardage to stretch out to 6,500 yards vs another that adds yardage to get to 6,800 yards, or even 6,900 yards? Some even have done this not to cater to floggers but rather to golfers.

Mark,

  Contrary to your speculation, we didn't have any preconceived list in mind, instead wondering what it would look like and how well could such a list represent what is "charming," " interesting," "unique," and "endearing" to us.  You see we were discussing so many of the other "lists" out there (including the one we contribute to) and trying very hard to segregate out the courses we think best exemplify great strategic design.....not an iota of preconception and backfilling there.

  Those courses that have added significant length to their layouts miss our point hence the 6500yd #. But it was never conceived to be a hard and fast limitation. Some length seems acceptable if the intent and result was to preserve strategic lines of play from elimination due to modern equipment. In fact, we did just that (and not a yard further) at Paramount.

ChipOat,

RHC & Ekwanok, both wonderful courses, are exactly what we had in mind in our discussions. Taconic, sans it extra length, would've fit nicely as well and Merion West certainly belongs.

Ally,

 You are most correct that such a feature is no basis for a list, but if our intent was to cull the fun and creative from the tough and monotonous, such features are certainly legitimate ingredients for consideration.

[Paul_Turner]

It's a fine list so far and I like the 6500 yd limit.  Vote to stick with it and I can't believe Pennard caved in and built "Championship Tees"...it's deservedly chucked.  It's like St Enodoc which really needed a "par 5" 16th

Whittington Heath would be a goodun to include but just misses at 6510.

Would Morfontaine have qualified until they capitulated like St Enodoc and stretched the  par 5 12th by moving the green?

I don't think Saunton West is quite good enough.  Portrush Valley is better.