Ran's challenge

[Carl Nichols]

In the interest of geographic diversity, how about Mar del Plata Golf Club, which tips out at 6,024 yards?  

Or perhaps two of the three 18-hole combinations at the higher-ranked Olivos Golf Club in Buenos Aires?  (There are three nines, and one of the 18-hole combinations is longer than 6500 yards.)  In 2011, Golf Digest ranked Olivos as the #71 course outside the U.S. -- a ranking that (as I've said before) seems pretty crazy to me, but it's still a very solid course.

[Sean_A]

Mark

I am not sure I would support S Pines or Lundin.  This is a tough list.  Look, a classy joint like Delamere Forest failed to make the grade. Same for Portrush Valley.  Although, has S Pines had work done to it recently?

I don't know Coombe Hill, but it must be like tons of Londonish courses, very competent design without being particularly special. 

Ciao

[Keith Grande]

Are we discussing par 72 courses at 6,500 yards?  Par 70 courses should drop to 6,300 yards. I have seen some sub 6,500 yard courses with par 3's in excess of 230 yards. I'd put these holes as borderline unreachable for many golfers.

Also, most courses don't play tipped on every hole, even the pro tournament  tees are varied each round.

[Peter Pallotta]

Here's a rough first stab at a Top 25 based on previous comments (Alphabetical).  Please comment on why courses should be added or subtracted.

Addington
Brora
Camberly Heath
Cavendish
Eastward Ho!
Edgaston
Huntercombe
Knole Park
Liphook
Machrihanish
Maidstone
New Zealand
Old Elm
Paraparaumu Beach
Pasatiempo
Prestbury
Royal West Norfolk
Rye
Southerndown
Stoneham
Swinley Forest
The Creek Club
West Sussex
White Bear YC
Worplesdon

Well, look at that - a list of mostly affordable, easy to maintain, enjoyable to play, modest, walkable, well-designed golf courses that have withstood the test of time by surviving for 70 and 80 and 90 years through all sorts of social and economic and technological changes by successfully fulfilling their main and perhaps only true purpose, i.e. providing local golfers with a challenging but pleasant and sustainable environment in which to enjoy the game.

Now THERE is true value, and in that value greatness -- for surely (no?) a key way of determining/judging the value of thing is in terms of how well it fulfills its main function/purpose.

Peter

[Phil McDade]

Are we discussing par 72 courses at 6,500 yards?  Par 70 courses should drop to 6,300 yards. I have seen some sub 6,500 yard courses with par 3's in excess of 230 yards. I'd put these holes as borderline unreachable for many golfers.

Also, most courses don't play tipped on every hole, even the pro tournament  tees are varied each round.

Keith -- I think this point reflects the kind of conventional thinking that's led us down the path to thinking all courses should be pars of 72 at 7,000+ yards. By all accounts, Rye is a beast at a par of 68 -- so be it. Most people dismiss Boat of Garten because it's under 6,000 yards, but at a par of 69 when I played it (now par 70 after one hole was stretched to a shortish par 5), it was a lot of golf course, particularly given the tight playing corridors that rendered driver off the tee a risky proposition, the smallish greens, and the uneven terrain that one usually finds on the fairways there.

Spring Valley -- a Langford in Wisconsin -- is another course that's deceptively long that plays to a par of 70 at @ 6,400 yds. It has 4 par fours that measure 460, 450, 435, and 420 from the tips, and 3 par threes that go 230, 180, and 190 from the tips -- pretty hefty stuff for a course that you can play for under $20 on weekends.

[Jud_T]

Sorry if I've missed it, but why is North Berwick absent from the list of 39?

The suspicion is Medal tees have been added which push it over the limit.  Would love a definitive answer from a local.  Paging Simon Holt...

Current List:

Addington
Beau Desert
Berkshire Red
Broadstone
Brora
Camberly Heath
Cavendish
The Creek
Eastward Ho!
Edgabaston
Elie
Fraserburgh
Golf de Spa
Huntercombe
Kington
Knole Park
Leatherstockings
Liphook
Machrihanish
Maidstone
New Zealand
Old Elm
Paraparaumu Beach
Parkstone
Pasatiempo
Prestbury
Royal West Norfolk
Rye
Southerndown
St. George's
Stoneham
Swinley Forest
Tandridge
Turfvaert
West Sussex
White Bear YC
Worplesdon

[Jud_T]

How about Southampton post renovation?

[David Harshbarger]

For the upstate NY contingent here's this.

Glens Falls is in Ian Andrew's world Top 100.  Tom Doak has posted it is a course in our area on his "to see" list. It's a Donald Ross course.  I have not, yet, played it.

Leatherstocking is a fun course with some interesting holes. Personally, I rate St. George's above it on the Emmet canon.  My understanding, maybe flawed, is that Les Rayner the pro there added the 18th tee out in the lake at Leatherstocking, which is cool, but the 16th, 17th, and 18th are out of character with the rest of the course.  That said, Leatherstocking is Emmet quirk through and through.

Here in the states, Emmet was a prolific Golden Age architect, but certainly he is overshadowed by Ross, MacKenzie, Tillie, Flynn, & MacRaynor.  When I mentioned my theory that Emmet was a 2nd tier architect to David M., he objected, saying Emmet was definitely a top tier GA architect.  Based on the rankings, you wouldn't think that, but then again, the competition is tough, and judging by St. George's NY and Leatherstocking, Emmet created fun courses with quirk not muscular, championship tests.  That seems like the kind of course that fits the bill, here, so maybe this is the list he gets his due.

CC of Troy, a Travis course, I haven't played since well before my GCA baptism. However, it was one of my GCA drivers, as though I had no vocabulary to describe the course I knew at the time it was a cool course.  It had that "it" of greens and hazards, contours and routing that an observant  if not knowledgeable neophyte keys in on.

Are these four courses in the Top 50-100 sub-6500?  I don't know, but, I do know that these are well regarded courses by top architects and certainly worthy of consideration.

[Andy Troeger]

I expect few of you have played it, but South Bend Country Club is worth consideration for the shortened list. I've only played a few courses on the overall list, but I think SBCC is every bit as good as Maidstone and Shoreacres.

[Mark Saltzman]

I expect few of you have played it, but South Bend Country Club is worth consideration for the shortened list. I've only played a few courses on the overall list, but I think SBCC is every bit as good as Maidstone and Shoreacres.

Wow, high praise, Andy!

[ChipOat]

Rockaway Hunting Club; Lawrence, NY; don't have the exact yardage in front of me, but 6400 is probably the max.

Will check on Inwood, as well.

Also, just to be correct, the name of the Macdonald course in Locust Valley, NY is simply called "The Creek" and not The Creek Club.

Just as the NYC men's club that CBM helped get started is called The Links and not The Links Club.

[Jason Topp]

Jason, how can Lundin be booted if it's a "terrific" course? For the record, I like Southern Pines, too, and find the idea of one included the other excluded to be kind of a Sophie's Golf Choice.

Mark:  It is a top 25 list so I think a course can be terrific and not make the grade.  The meadow holes at Lundin are a negative although the view from the 14th might compensate.  From my relatively old memory of two rounds at Southern Pines I cannot remember a weak hole. 

To me if you are going to suggest an addition you need to suggest a cut.  I thought about Brora but could not bring myself to do it. Too much soul there.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Jason,

Agreed, the meadow holes definitely are a demerit. I just like Lundie for this list because, in addition to really enjoying the course, I feel like it is a man's course. It punches above its weight.

[Ross Tuddenham]

Sorry if I've missed it, but why is North Berwick absent from the list of 39?

Here is the scorecard where the medal tees are listed as 6456;




But for the recent open final local qualifying the yardage was 6592 http://scoring.theopen.com/scores_qual.sps?pageid=11&id=36677&iTourNo=2013008&iTourId=7



Does that mean it is in or out?

[Duncan Cheslett]

I'd say that it means North Berwick is in.

UNDER 6,500, so those are just too long. Yes - tips. As an Englishman I am thinking in terms of the men's medal plate, the one from which you play all significant club competitions during the season.

The distance from the Mens' medal plates is 6456 yards.  A few 'Championship' tees in adjacent farmers' fields specifically built every ten years or so for Open qualifying do not change the official length of a course for members or visitors.



Oh, and when Ran initially suggested a list of courses under 6500 yards, he specifically referenced Fraserburgh and Reddish Vale as prime examples of courses that should be included.

Ergo, Fraserburgh and Reddish Vale should be in! 

[Thomas Dai]

Geographically, it's good to see some courses from Argentina mentioned.

I've heard there's at least one quality course in Santiago, Chile. Regrettably I cannot recall it's name. Plus wasn't there talk on GCA recently about a Dr MacK course in Montevideo, Uruguay?

I thought about courses in South Africa. However, a little googling indicated the usual suspects like Humewood and East London etc, and even some of the more unusual suspects, all exceeded 6,500 yds. Royal Port Alfred though, which I've heard some nice comments about, is less than the yardage being discussed here. Anyone SA way or who's been there/played it reckon it's worthy of inclusion?

Just some thoughs.

ATB

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think North Berwick should be in if it doesn't include those Open Championship qualifying tees on its regular scorecard.... If it does, then it should be excluded.... (this should be consistent when judging all courses... i.e. the "back" tees as broadcast)

We are surprisingly short on links courses and high on heathlands.... I'd suggest Strandhill but I'm not sure the quality is quite there to displace anyone...

I haven't seen Edgbaston but I might question it as Arble whimsy?

Also think we need to see more American & international courses - there must be some to displace a few of those above?... Let's keep it to 25 any which way...

[Sean_A]

Sorry if I've missed it, but why is North Berwick absent from the list of 39?

Here is the scorecard where the medal tees are listed as 6456;




But for the recent open final local qualifying the yardage was 6592 http://scoring.theopen.com/scores_qual.sps?pageid=11&id=36677&iTourNo=2013008&iTourId=7



Does that mean it is in or out?

Ross

I would chuck it out. Part of the point of this list is to identify courses which have not succumbed to the pressure of adding yardage at which arbitrarily 6500 yards was the top whack.  I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere.  It doesn't matter how many folks play the backs, the backs are the backs and as such are the total length of the course.  It also doesn't make a difference if the club decides to print two separate cards.  All the members know where the backs are - regardless of what the daily card says.

Ally - if the list is 25 - there are others I would drop before Edgbaston.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sorry if I've missed it, but why is North Berwick absent from the list of 39?

Here is the scorecard where the medal tees are listed as 6456;




But for the recent open final local qualifying the yardage was 6592 http://scoring.theopen.com/scores_qual.sps?pageid=11&id=36677&iTourNo=2013008&iTourId=7



Does that mean it is in or out?

Ross

I would chuck it out. Part of the point of this list is to identify courses which have not succumbed to the pressure of adding yardage at which arbitrarily 6500 yards was the top whack.  I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere.  It doesn't matter how many folks play the backs, the backs are the backs and as such are the total length of the course.  It also doesn't make a difference if the club decides to print two separate cards.  All the members know where the backs are - regardless of what the daily card says.

Ally - if the list is 25 - there are others I would drop before Edgbaston.

Ciao

Sean - my point being there may not be a card with the 6,592 yards on it other than a temporary one... If the only club card shows 6,450 as back then it should be in...

Which of the 25 would be your first to go, then?

[Martin Toal]

Royal Portrush (Valley), 6304 off the medal tees.

Silloth on Solway 6400-odd yards.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Martin,

Silloth is 6,600 yards from the back tees on the scorecard...

Don't think we can look at Medal tees... Has to be back tees marked on the scorecard...

[Sean_A]

Sorry if I've missed it, but why is North Berwick absent from the list of 39?

Here is the scorecard where the medal tees are listed as 6456;




But for the recent open final local qualifying the yardage was 6592 http://scoring.theopen.com/scores_qual.sps?pageid=11&id=36677&iTourNo=2013008&iTourId=7



Does that mean it is in or out?

Ross

I would chuck it out. Part of the point of this list is to identify courses which have not succumbed to the pressure of adding yardage at which arbitrarily 6500 yards was the top whack.  I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere.  It doesn't matter how many folks play the backs, the backs are the backs and as such are the total length of the course.  It also doesn't make a difference if the club decides to print two separate cards.  All the members know where the backs are - regardless of what the daily card says.

Ally - if the list is 25 - there are others I would drop before Edgbaston.

Ciao

Sean - my point being there may not be a card with the 6,592 yards on it other than a temporary one... If the only club card shows 6,450 as back then it should be in...

Which of the 25 would be your first to go, then?

Ally

Are tee areas created and do the members recognize them?  Because a separate card is produced doesn't mean squat to me.  I don't think we list the yardage of the back tees on the card used for daily play at Burnham, but all the members know that a couple of times a year those tees are in play. 

I don't know what the 25 courses are.  To date, we have 39 or something. 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sorry if I've missed it, but why is North Berwick absent from the list of 39?

Here is the scorecard where the medal tees are listed as 6456;




But for the recent open final local qualifying the yardage was 6592 http://scoring.theopen.com/scores_qual.sps?pageid=11&id=36677&iTourNo=2013008&iTourId=7



Does that mean it is in or out?

Ross

I would chuck it out. Part of the point of this list is to identify courses which have not succumbed to the pressure of adding yardage at which arbitrarily 6500 yards was the top whack.  I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere.  It doesn't matter how many folks play the backs, the backs are the backs and as such are the total length of the course.  It also doesn't make a difference if the club decides to print two separate cards.  All the members know where the backs are - regardless of what the daily card says.

Ally - if the list is 25 - there are others I would drop before Edgbaston.

Ciao

Sean - my point being there may not be a card with the 6,592 yards on it other than a temporary one... If the only club card shows 6,450 as back then it should be in...

Which of the 25 would be your first to go, then?

Ally

Are tee areas created and do the members recognize them?  Because a separate card is produced doesn't mean squat to me.  I don't think we list the yardage of the back tees on the card used for daily play at Burnham, but all the members know that a couple of times a year those tees are in play. 

I don't know what the 25 courses are.  To date, we have 39 or something. 

Ciao

Depends if the members ever play from them I agree... And if they were constructed for any other reason than Open qualifying?... And if they were actually really constructed at all?.... If Simon can give us an answer to this...

Time to knock some of those 39 off the top-25 list... Leave them in a reserve bucket... Prestbury & Stoneham? Turfvaert? It may be the greatest course in Europe but it was nominated by Frank and no-one else has seen it unfortunately... Elie?

[Mark Bourgeois]

On principle I say disqualify any course that's hosted a flogger tournament, including Open qualifiers.

[Ally Mcintosh]

On principle I say disqualify any course that's hosted a flogger tournament, including Open qualifiers.

Your call of course Mark.... But we want a serious list of high-end golf courses that show that under 6,500 yards can equal world class... Small technicalities should be overlooked if the clubs disregard those tees in their entirety for all publicity and events other than the one or two in question... If the club says its course plays to 6,450 yards then that is the right attitude... Again, we might need Simon?