Ran's challenge

[Sean_A]

Sean that is exactly my point.

So whats the problem?  Some clubs know what they have and want easy street and some clubs like to muck about.

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Changes and additions made.  Now we've got a top 30.  Any other necessary geographic additions for diversity?  I was wondering about Leatherstockings myself.  Thoughts on St. George's and Elie?:

Addington
Beau Desert
Berkshire Red
Boat of Garten
Brora
Camberly Heath
Cavendish
Eastward Ho!
Huntercombe
Knole Park
Leatherstockings
Liphook
Machrihanish
Maidstone
New Zealand
Old Elm
Paraparaumu Beach
Pasatiempo
Pennard
Prestbury
Royal West Norfolk
Rye
Southern Pines
Southerndown
Swinley Forest
Tandridge
The Creek Club
Turfvaert
West Sussex
White Bear YC

[Jason Topp]

My vote:

Southern Pines In
Lundin Links out.

Lundin is a terrific course but not in the class of the others.  I thought Southern Pines was very good.

[Phil McDade]

Can anyone make a reasonable argument for Tandridge or Knole Park being on this list ahead of Boat of Garten? Maybe that's a two-steps-back-one-step-forward method of culling the list.

Tandridge has the Colt heritage, but the GCA thread on it -- http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49526.0.html -- shows a course that, for my tastes, is over-bunkered with some significant tree problems. Sean Arble's photos are still being repaired , but I recall his thread on Knole Park --http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53010.0.html
 -- and didn't seen anything there that would make me choose it over a round at the Boat.

Does the Boat get penalized because no one on the board has seen fit to venture off the A9 on the way to Dornoch to play it?

And I'd like to see something in pictures of Turfvaert to warrant its inclusion.

I'd argue two links courses under 6,500 -- Crail Balcomie and esp. Fraserburgh -- are better than Lundin. I think Golf House Club (Elie) may be better as well.

[Jud_T]

My vote:

Southern Pines In
Lundin Links out.

Lundin is a terrific course but not in the class of the others.  I thought Southern Pines was very good.

done in the name of geographic diversity.  What about Australia?

[Paul_Turner]

Tandridge is a shoe in.  

Anyone mentioned Pennard?  Can't be too long, surely.

[Phil McDade]

My vote:

Southern Pines In
Lundin Links out.

Lundin is a terrific course but not in the class of the others.  I thought Southern Pines was very good.

done in the name of geographic diversity.

Well, what's the quota, then, so I can make adjustments based on arbitrary measures as opposed to merit?

[Phil McDade]

Tandridge is a shoe in.  

Make your argument...I can see several of these being shoe-ins, but I don't see what merit's Tandridge's inclusion.

[Mark Bourgeois]

In his introduction to his profile of Reddish Vale Ran Morrissett said:

I was talking with Steve Lapper recently about GolfClubAtlas.com starting a ranking. Groan, groan, groan, you think as your eyes roll back in your head.   Wait! Ours would be of the world’s best 6,500y and under courses. Let’s give clubs a reason NOT to expand their tee boxes backwards. Let’s herald courses that still value walking by keeping the green to tee walks tight. Though we may never compile such a ranking, it is wonderful to tip the hat to exceedingly worthy places such as Reddish Vale and Fraserburgh.

Should we try to compile a list of the top 50 qualifying courses? The list could be expanded to any number of courses you fancy. We could have separate compilations for courses under 6,250 yards, 6,000 yards and maybe even under 5,750 yards.

Just to place this exercise in proper context, GMBF's two suggestions apparently have failed to make the cut. 

Jason, how can Lundin be booted if it's a "terrific" course? For the record, I like Southern Pines, too, and find the idea of one included the other excluded to be kind of a Sophie's Golf Choice.

[Phil McDade]

Tandridge is a shoe in.  

Anyone mentioned Pennard?  Can't be too long, surely.

Paul:

Based on pictures alone, I'd pay 10 rounds at Pennard to one for Tandridge.

[Jud_T]

OK, we're up to 39.  Keep 'em coming, must have's, possible dropouts:

Addington
Beau Desert
Berkshire Red
Broadstone
Brora
Camberly Heath
Cavendish
Eastward Ho!
Edgabaston
Elie
Fraserburgh
Golf de Spa
Huntercombe
Ipswich
Kington
Knole Park
Leatherstockings
Liphook
Machrihanish
Maidstone
New Zealand
Old Elm
Paraparaumu Beach
Parkstone
Pasatiempo
Prestbury
Royal West Norfolk
Rye
Southern Pines
Southerndown
St. George's
Stoneham
Swinley Forest
Tandridge
The Creek Club
Turfvaert
West Sussex
White Bear YC
Worpleston

[Mark Bourgeois]

Fraserburgh and Reddish Vale?

[Trey Kemp]

Here are a few courses from Texas and Oklahoma.  I am not sure they all merit being in the Top 50 discussion but they are all pretty good courses under 6,500 yards from the back tees.

Brackenridge Park Golf Course - 6,263 yards (A.W. Tillinghast), San Antonio, TX
Dornick Hills - 6,453 yards (Perry Maxwell), Ardmore, OK
Onion Creek Club (Original Course) - 6,351 yards (Jimmy Demaret), Austin, TX
River Crest Country Club - 6,383 yards (Tom Bendelow), Fort Worth, TX
Stevens Park Golf Course - 6,285 yards (Jackie Burke Sr.) Dallas, TX

[Jud_T]

Dornick Hills isn't all original is it?

Mark,

Done above.  We're at 43 and counting...

[Trey Kemp]

Dornick Hills was renovated back in the 90's I believe, it would be a great course to restore.

[Thomas Dai]

Changes and additions made.  So what 3 courses come out? any other necessary geographic additions for diversity?  I was wondering about Leatherstockings myself.  Thoughts on St. George's and Elie?:

Addington
Beau Desert
Berkshire Red
Brora
Camberly Heath
Cavendish
Eastward Ho!
Huntercombe
Knole Park
Leatherstockings
Liphook
Lundin
Machrihanish
Maidstone
New Zealand
Old Elm
Paraparaumu Beach
Pasatiempo
Prestbury
Royal West Norfolk
Rye
Southerndown
Swinley Forest
Tandridge
The Creek Club
Turfvaert
West Sussex
White Bear YC

Jud, thanks for the coordinated listings.

Golspie - special place
Tain - often missed, should be played
Perranporth - links on top the cliffs
Tadmarton Heath - wee inland gem
Green course at Frilford Heath - wee inland gem
Minchinhampton Old - links in the sky, love it!
Dooks - less tha n6,500
Southerndown in but no Pennard
RACV Healsville? Lots of very positive GCA comments
Anything worthy in South America below 6,500?
Heard it said on here recently that Fraserburgh is better than Cruden Bay. If so, Fraserburgh should be included.

Just some thoughts.
ATB

[Jud_T]

How about Country Club of Troy and Rolling Rock?

[Paul_Turner]

It's a good list but I do think we need some more US courses here though.  I'm sure there's lots that could qualify.

Phil

Based on playing both I'd go for Pennard 6:4 over Tandridge.  But that's only because I like Pennard a lot.

Anyway Tandridge's strengths:

Other than the unusual bunkering and mounding, which I happen to like because it's different for the UK... the course has a super routing with lots of variety on a small property.  Many fine greens, some with complicated tiers like the 2nd, others more subtle like the 5th which falls away and others with a severe tilt (4th, 6th). The course has a good rhythm and builds to a spectacular finish.

If you don't believe me at least..."Golf's Most Beloved" is a big fan..not sure why he never reviewed it though

[Steve Lapper]

Everyone (and Jud),

  As the protagonist in this discussion with his eminence (aka now Golf's most bitter ), I think it's time to step in and send all of you precision scorecard readers to your respective corners. Call off the "cut' men and put on your robes!

  Our discussion was not semantically limited to "exactly those courses that tipped out under 6500 yds." It was NOT driven by the need to exclude course like a Somerset Hills, a Pasatiempo or a Myopia Hunt because they extend slightly past 6500yds. The thrust of the discussion was about listing and segregating out those gems whose design and regular teeing grounds yield tremendous strategy AT or NEAR 6500yds. It was almost as much about wanting to exclude the raw brutes or hideously disfigured "Francis Bacon-style" courses that so regularly dominate the GD lists.

  Go ahead and add or subtract 3-5% and then ask yourself just how wonderful the course's architecture revealed itself to a myriad of different abilities within a spectrum of reasonability? Exclude those whose multiple tees stretch a layout back far enough to challenge the modern college player or professional. Who cares about them?? Remember, that subset adds up to less than 1% of those actively playing the game.

   We pined for the challenge and strategic design that tipped out in that vicinity but still left excited and eager to move up in response to the appropriate wind, temperature or even shaft material. We wanted a list that reflected talent and genius, but still had room for evolution (sorry Rees).

    Go ahead now and lower the buckets, pull the chairs, untie the robes and get back in there!!! Most all of you will soon have a new punching bag that'll be posted later....so hurry up and get a few more shots in!

[Matthew Petersen]

A few off the top of my head ...

A quartet of William P Bell designs:

Balboa Park, San Diego 6281
Encanto, Phoenix 6386
Biltmore (Adobe), Phoenix 6428
El Rio, Tucson 6418

Plus a more modern design north of San Diego:

Mt Woodson. Tiny on the card at 5764 but carrying a 133 slope to show it's no pushover. Of course, nothing about the design is likely to appeal to this group. But it's still an interesting study.

[Sean_A]

I don't know the yardage, but I am sure Pennard is now more than 6500 yards from the back tees.  

I like Reddish Vale a lot, but I think it is probably just on the wrong side of a Doak 6 for this list.  I wouldn't dream of giving up Kington for Reddish Vale - that doesn't make sense.  Hell, I would put Kington ahead of many courses I listed.  Its right there with Beau Desert.

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Phil,

FYI Boat of Garten was a Doak 5.  So was Elie but there seems to be a strong enough contingent in favor. Lundin was a 3...

[Phil McDade]

Jud T:

Do you have the Confidential Guide ratings for the 40 or so courses you've listed (not to give you any work... ?)

Not to be a slave to Tom's rankings, but maybe some combination of Conf. Guide rankings, Ran's reviews, reputable GCA thread-posters, and more spirited debate will get us down to 25-30. Lapper's addendums and provisos is making this harder, but we're up to it.

(And remember that part of the Doak's rankings directly talk about length, which to my mind can be amended given the constraints of this ranking. Doak 4 definition: 4: "A modestly interesting course, with a couple of distinctive holes among the 18, or at least some scenic interest and decent golf. Also reserved for some very good courses that are much too short and narrow to provide sufficient challenge for accomplished golfers.")

Perhaps that suggests a Doak 4 might be a Doak 6 or 7 adjusted for this ranking.

[Jud_T]

What about Coombe Hill?

Phil,

I'll add it back if we get a couple of seconds on it...

[Eric Smith]

Sorry if I've missed it, but why is North Berwick absent from the list of 39?