Ran's challenge

[Sean_A]

I think Worpy comes in at just under 6500?

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

Peter,

More the "good" yes. It's a great observation, but if this indeed is where Ran is headed remember, nobody ever asks why St Paul didn't convert sooner.

And in my own defense, meager though it be, my last substantial posts have praised a course in the rattiest possible condition.

[Mac Plumart]

Crail Balcomie
5,861

[DMoriarty]

Me thinks Ran et al have been hoisted on their own petards. Spend years promoting the classic golden age courses, and years more celebrating the renaissance, and extolling fast and firm and options and strategies and the ODGs and the modern masters, and throughout all those years debating (well, proscribing actually) what makes for 'great courses' and 'great architecture' -- and then at the end of all this, realize that 6500 yards is all anyone needs only to find that very few of the courses that meet THAT standard/criteria also meet the standards/criteria of greatness that they've spent 20 decades crafting and creating.

No.  Many or most of the great courses did qualify before they bastardized themselves, and many are worse for it. They are all the exceptions that prove the rule.

[Tom_Doak]

6500 is a perfect number.  Cypress Point, Merion and Crystal Downs were all under that number 25 years ago, before they succumbed to peer pressure.  St. Enodoc was well under the number, until Peter McEvoy lengthened the 16th.  Narin & Portnoo is another cool course bastardized in the name of a bigger number on the scorecard.  Has Maidstone succumbed?  It used to the the shortest course in the top 100 list, at 6325 or so.

Rye and Swinley Forest are the first two that came to mind for me.  I hope White Bear Yacht Club is still under the cutoff.  What about West Sussex?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Whitinsville is under the mark by 73 yards (9x2, thanks Jud).

[Peter Pallotta]

Mark  - pithy, and true! I hope I didn't come off too critical or know-it-all-ish; I wanted to get to my main point -- i.e. Sean's version of 'greatness', which I think well worth considering -- and so I just started typing and my fingers ran away with me and that's what came out.

David - I'd agree I think, but I'd guess that the kind of courses we're talking about had already broken the 6,500 yard mark (via lengthening) by the time gca.com came around; it's not a recent phenomenon, though it seems to have picked up momentum in the last decade or so.  (I don't remember any of Ran's profiles mentioning/praising the 'pre-6,500' version of any of the great and/or golden age courses.)

Peter

[John_Conley]

This is awesome.  Great idea.  I had an excellent player (competed in 9 events on the PGA Tour) ask me today about "the golf ball" and my thoughts on rolling it back.  My response was that shortening courses would force the design and setup to get creative in how to defend against scoring.  (Think US Open at Shinnecock final day when it was so hard and windy.)

My nomination of Eau Claire G & CC just misses the 6,500 threshold as well.

For the sub-6 division I offer up Mount Dora GC.  It is just over 5,700 as memory serves.  Defends itself very well.

[jeffwarne]

Wouldn't just about every course in the UK qualify since visitors can only play the yellow tees?

second question (actual serious question)
In the monthly medal at UK clubs, where handicaps are established,what tees do members play in these stroke play competitions?
and is there a max one can make on a hole?

[Tom_Doak]

West Sussex is 6,355 yards from the "Tiger" tees.

I would guess it's in the top ten of the final list.

[Ross Tuddenham]

A few courses from around the area I used to live which are probably in the top 100 for Scotland;

North Berwick is 6464 yards from the white tee's according to the scorecard on their website.

Lundin - 6371 yards (from tips)

Kilspindie - 5502

Dunbar - 6404 ( Scorecard )

Gullane 2 - 6385

Gullane 3 - 5259

Longniddry - 6260


I appreciate it would be pushing it to have most of them in a world top 100 even with the 6500 criteria, but I have put them up in case the strict criteria of <= 6500 from the tips does not produce all that many choices.

Imagine a world where courses shorten the medal tees to sneak into the Golf Club atlas 6500 top 100? 

[Robert_Ball]

Morfontaine - 6446

Misquamicut - 6214

[Jim Nugent]

I'd like to see some top ten lists of these courses, and also see where they stand in the overall rankings. 

[Sean_A]

Mark  - pithy, and true! I hope I didn't come off too critical or know-it-all-ish; I wanted to get to my main point -- i.e. Sean's version of 'greatness', which I think well worth considering -- and so I just started typing and my fingers ran away with me and that's what came out.

David - I'd agree I think, but I'd guess that the kind of courses we're talking about had already broken the 6,500 yard mark (via lengthening) by the time gca.com came around; it's not a recent phenomenon, though it seems to have picked up momentum in the last decade or so.  (I don't remember any of Ran's profiles mentioning/praising the 'pre-6,500' version of any of the great and/or golden age courses.)

Peter

The only course I listed which I consider great is the Sacred 9.  All the others are good to very good. I am not sure how many are worth including in any sort of ranking.  Usually, I am all for ranking less to get a better list.  I wonder if we can come up with 25 sub 6500 yard courses that are either great or unquestionably worth playing. 

Ciao 

[Joe Bausch]

LuLu (par 71/6433 yards).

[jeffwarne]

6500 is a perfect number.  Cypress Point, Merion and Crystal Downs were all under that number 25 years ago, before they succumbed to peer pressure.  St. Enodoc was well under the number, until Peter McEvoy lengthened the 16th.  Narin & Portnoo is another cool course bastardized in the name of a bigger number on the scorecard.  Has Maidstone succumbed?  It used to the the shortest course in the top 100 list, at 6325 or so.

Rye and Swinley Forest are the first two that came to mind for me.  I hope White Bear Yacht Club is still under the cutoff.  What about West Sussex?

Golf courses have gotten longer throughout history.

As any avid GCA participant knows, I certainly have railed against recent hot golf ball and club innovations and think a rollback would serve the game well.
That said, to use the word "bastardize" or any other negative word against lengthening because it puts a club over an arbitrary number we have chosen seems a bit silly.
If we choose 5800 we can bitch about the bastardization in 1904 of some other venue.
If a good player routinely hits driver 9 iron on a Maidstone par 5, should the rest of the shorter player tees suffer whatever field inflencing defence someone dreams up (high rough, whatever) when a cleverly placed back tee can restore the intent of the hole for the better player, without unduly slowng play and punishing the rest while the USGA conducts a study to see whether the ball goes farther "while we're young"?

The word bastardization is far more appropriate for what was done to Shinnecock in 2004 for the US Open.
A classic case of ignoring the problem and creating other ones.

Back to the original premise?
Aiken Golf Club
Kebo Valley
Palmetto
Southampton
St Georges
Apawamis
Cape Arundel



Palmetto is an example of a great course well under 6500 yards. The fact that there are a few way back tees in place that are never open shouldn't disqualify it as I don't think I've ever seen the back tees exceed 6400.

Meanwhile we all know 6500 yards and less is an ideal number for the majority of golfers, but because it's ideal for us, should mean good players shouldn't be allowed to play relevant length courses, and it does take a very innovative course or weather to be relevant under 6500.

[Robin_Hiseman]

Having seen it yesterday, Tandridge is very good and under 6400.
Liphook - 6295
Cavendish - 5721

You could fill a pretty good list just with Scottish courses.  Kilmacolm at 5961 is an absolute peach, which virtually nobody knows about.

This could be quite a fun little project Mark.  Let me know if you need any help. 

[Rich Goodale]

Is Kilmacolm that good, Robin?  I'm scheduled to play a 36-holer there in a couple of weeks and am thinking of giving my place away due to other commitments.  You are dead right about Scotland.  There is a huge number of very good <6500 yeard courses up here, but they are so near the trophy venues, very few vistors play them.  Ones that I don't recall yet seeing on this list include:

Elie
Gullane #2
Forfar
Kilspindie
Cardross
Powfoot
Stirling
Queens (Gleneagles)
Murrayfield
Alyth
Banhory
Edzell
etc. etc. etc.

One's elsewhere that I remember:

Swinley Forest
Wood's Hole
Pacific Grove

Jeff W.

Per your earlier post, here in the UK if playing in a medal you must hole out on every hole to be elgible for a prize, and the vast majority oif players do, even if they have no sniff of a prize.  That being said, for handicap puposes a system a system is in plce similar to (and acutally improving on) the ESC system adopted by the USGA, so even though you have to put your 9s and 13s and 17s s on your card, they get reduced to bogeys double or triples (depending on handicap).

Rich

[Lyne Morrison]

Tom,

Maidstone Blue comes in at 6423

Lyne

[Robin_Hiseman]

Rich:
It's been a good 20 years since I last played it, but it's known locally as the 'miniature Gleneagles' and from memory that seems to be a fair enough comparison.  It's the same post glacial terrain, albeit south of the Clyde.  I think you'd really enjoy it if you go.

[Robin_Hiseman]

More from Scotland:

East Renfrewshire
Ranfurly Castle
Kirriemuir
Aberfoyle
Milngavie

[David_Elvins]

Arrowtown deserves to be somewhere on the list.  Just over 6000 yards, I think. 

[Tom_Doak]

6500 is a perfect number.  Cypress Point, Merion and Crystal Downs were all under that number 25 years ago, before they succumbed to peer pressure.  St. Enodoc was well under the number, until Peter McEvoy lengthened the 16th.  Narin & Portnoo is another cool course bastardized in the name of a bigger number on the scorecard.  Has Maidstone succumbed?  It used to the the shortest course in the top 100 list, at 6325 or so.

Rye and Swinley Forest are the first two that came to mind for me.  I hope White Bear Yacht Club is still under the cutoff.  What about West Sussex?

Golf courses have gotten longer throughout history.

As any avid GCA participant knows, I certainly have railed against recent hot golf ball and club innovations and think a rollback would serve the game well.
That said, to use the word "bastardize" or any other negative word against lengthening because it puts a club over an arbitrary number we have chosen seems a bit silly.
If we choose 5800 we can bitch about the bastardization in 1904 of some other venue.
If a good player routinely hits driver 9 iron on a Maidstone par 5, should the rest of the shorter player tees suffer whatever field inflencing defence someone dreams up (high rough, whatever) when a cleverly placed back tee can restore the intent of the hole for the better player, without unduly slowng play and punishing the rest while the USGA conducts a study to see whether the ball goes farther "while we're young"?

The word bastardization is far more appropriate for what was done to Shinnecock in 2004 for the US Open.
A classic case of ignoring the problem and creating other ones.

Jeff:

In general, I agree with your point above.

However, I only used the word "bastardized" to describe what happened at Portnoo, where they added several hundred yards (and changed par from 69 to 73!) in an attempt to put the course on the radar for Americans, and totally changed the character of the course.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Has Boat of Garten been mentioned?

Best from Ireland is probably Strandhill (6,400)... Ballybee would have been incredibly close up until a couple of years ago (sat at just over 6,500 yards for years)... Narin & Portnoo would have also until 5 years ago... North West is still there (6,300)... Laytown & Bettystown too (6,400)

[Thomas Dai]

Here are two more wee gems that immediately come to mind from the UK -

Tadmarton Heath, near Banbury - 5,936 yds, par 69 from the men's medal/white tees - http://www.tadmartongolf.com/pages.php/page/6b482a36-446e-11e2-8f46-bc305bd9eec9/view_section.html

Green course at Frilford Heath, near Oxford - 6,015 yds, par 69 from the men's medal/white tees - http://www.frilfordheath.co.uk/courses/green_course/

Nice thread. More possibly later if others don't mention them beforehand.

All the best.