Ran's challenge

[Niall C]

Just for a bit of fun I thought I'd start at the top of the Scottish mainland and work my way down the East coast to St Andrews, listing the 18-hole courses nearish the coast, excluding major/famous names and not including any inland courses or 9-holers.

I'd never have guessed there'd be this many. I could well be wrong, but I don't believe any of these are over 6,500 yds even from the back tees - I could be wrong though. I'm sure someone will say if I am! Indeed, some are well under 6,500, some under 6,000, some even under 5,000. Some crackers and gems. Some eccentric, idiosyncratic or down right weird, and some, well perhaps a few steps lower down the golfing desirability ladder.

Raey
Wick
Brora
Golspie
Tain
Invergordon
Fortrose & Rosemarkie
Nairn Dunbar
Moray Old
Moray New
Hopeman
Gramouth & Kingston
Speybay
Buckpool
Strathlene
Cullen
Duff House Royal
Royal Tarlair
Fraserburgh
Inverallochy
Peterhead
Newburgh
Murcar
Kings Links
Balnagask
Stonehaven
Montrose
Arbroath
Burnside
Buddon
Panmure
Monifeith
Scotscraig
Himalayas at StA
that'll do

34 courses in about 350 miles. Just a few then.

ATB

Thomas

I've played most of those courses and would be happy to recommend all of those as being worth playing. I'd also add Forres and Elgin to the list even though they aren't right on the coast. Both well worth a game. As an aside, and as Ran mentioned his conversation with Steve Lapper, I had recommended those two to Steve in a thread last year when he and Brad Klein visited the area for last years Scottish Open. I'm pretty sure they didn't play them as they stuck to the coast.

Niall

[Jim_Kennedy]

Another beauty that makes it under the wire by 40 or so yards is Wyantenuck CC (Pryde/Banks) in Gt. Barrington, Ma.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I don't see a mention yet for the wonderful Windermere - only 5132 yards but a real handful amid some of the finest scenery on Earth...

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,24494.0.html


Or Holywell in North Wales; a relative monster at 6091 yards...

But the genie is out and for me to hit all my clubs, 6200 wont do it.

I really don't understand this.

The course profile which started off this thread was of my place, Reddish Vale. Even the biggest hitter will use every club in his bag, even though the total length from the back tees is only 6086 yards. The only reason for the short overall course length is that we have five par 3s and only two par 5s.

Much the same is true of very many old courses in the UK. Over here 6200 yards is not a short course - it is probably about average.

[Jud_T]

Updated list:

Aberfoyle
Addington
Aiken GC
Algonquin
Alyth
Apawamis
Arbroath
Arrowtown
Ashburn (Old)
Bald Peak Colony
Ballater
Balnagask
Banhory
Beau Desert
Berkshire Blue
Birkshire Red
Blackhawk
Blackwell
Blairgowrie (wee)
Boat of Garten
Brancepeth Castle
Broadstone
Brora
Buckpool
Buddon
Burlington GCC
Burnside
Camberly Heath
Cape Arundel
Cardross
Carnoustie Burnside
Cavendish
CC Fairfield
CC Farmington
Claremont CC
Clearwater CC
Coombe Hill
Copake
Crail Balcomie
Cullen
Dealmere Forest
Downfield
Duff House Royal
Dunbar
East Renfrewshire
Eastward Ho!
Edgaston
Edzell
Elgin
Elie
Forfar
Forres
Fortrose & Rosemarkie
Fraserburgh
Friford Heath
Glen Falls
Gleneagles (Queens)
Golspie
Gramouth & Kingston
Gullane 2
Gullane 3
Hanover CC
Harborne
Healesville
Highlands
Hindhead GC
Hockley
Hollywell
Hopeman
Huntercombe
Hyannisport
Inverallochy
Invergordon
kawartha
Kebo Valley
Kilspindie
Kings Links
Kingswood
Kington
Kirrienuir
Knole Park
LACC South
Lakeview
Laytown & Bettystown
Leatherstockings
Lincoln Park
Liphook
Longniddry
Longshore GC
Lulu CC
Lundin
Machrihanish
Maidstone
Maple Bluffs
Merion West
Metacomet
Milngavie
Misquimicut
Monifeith
Monroe CC
Monterey Peninsula
Montrose
Moray New
Moray Old
Morfontaine
Mount Dora GC
Murcar
Murrayfield
Nairn Dunbar
New Zealand
Newburgh
North West
Old Del Monte GC
Old Elm
Pacific Grove
Painswick
Palos Verdes
Panmure
Paraparaumu Beach
Parkstone
pasatiempo
Paxon Hollow
Pedrena
Peterhead
Piltdown
Pinehurst #1
Pinehurst #3
Portrush Valley
Powfoot
Prestbury
Raey
Ranfurly Castle
Ravisloe CC
Reddish Vale
Roring Gap
Rosedale
Royal Tarlair
Royal West Norfolk
Rye
Scotscraig
Seaview Bay
Siwanoy CC
South Bend CC
Southampton
Southerndown
Speybay
Spring Valley
St. George's
Stamford GC
Stirling
Stoneham
Stonehaven
Stowe CC
Stranhill
Strathlene
Strathpeffer Spa
Swinley Forest
Tadmarton Heath
Tain
The Creek Club
Town & Country Club
Vicotria GC
Waunumetonomy
Wentworth East
West Sussex
Westborough
White Bear YC
Wianno
Wick
Windermere
Wood's Hole
Worplesdon
Wyantenuck

[Thomas Dai]

Just for a bit of fun I thought I'd start at the top of the Scottish mainland and work my way down the East coast to St Andrews, listing the 18-hole courses nearish the coast, excluding major/famous names and not including any inland courses or 9-holers.

I'd never have guessed there'd be this many. I could well be wrong, but I don't believe any of these are over 6,500 yds even from the back tees - I could be wrong though. I'm sure someone will say if I am! Indeed, some are well under 6,500, some under 6,000, some even under 5,000. Some crackers and gems. Some eccentric, idiosyncratic or down right weird, and some, well perhaps a few steps lower down the golfing desirability ladder.

Thomas

I've played most of those courses and would be happy to recommend all of those as being worth playing. I'd also add Forres and Elgin to the list even though they aren't right on the coast. Both well worth a game. As an aside, and as Ran mentioned his conversation with Steve Lapper, I had recommended those two to Steve in a thread last year when he and Brad Klein visited the area for last years Scottish Open. I'm pretty sure they didn't play them as they stuck to the coast.

Niall

Niall,

Amazing isn't it that you take only a 350 mile stretch of coastline around what is really a pretty small island and you come you with 34 courses of this kind of quality without including the usual big names like Dornoch, Castle Stuart, Nairn, Cruden Bay, Royal Aberdeen, the Championship at Carnoustie plus several courses at St Andrews. Then there are the inland courses at Forres and Elgin that you mention plus many other worthies like, and this is just a few off the top of my head, Blairgowrie (2), Edzell, Alyth, Forfar, Downfield, Ballater. I'm sure there are a few more inland worthies north of the River Tay that I've omitted to mention.

A big task to whittle all below 6,500 yds within GB&I down to a top 50 let alone came up with a top-50 worldwide.

Some one else care to name the worthies from south of St Andrews along the coast as far as say Newcastle plus any inland courses in that area to consider as well?

All the best

[Mark Saltzman]

Kawartha (Stanley Thompson)... http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.ca/2011/12/kawartha-golf-cc.html

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jud,
Pasatiempo's website says it's championship tees 6,500 on the nose, and Wyantenuck is 18 (now that 9 hole courses seem to be discarded from the list   ).

[Jud_T]

Interestingly, while these are exactly the type of courses I should be playing and focusing on, I've only played 4 out of 168 listed!  Of course 2 of them are local favorites (perhaps now I know why!).  I wonder how many of the lower handicappers course reviews are colored significantly by distance and higher handicappers by lack thereof.  I had a big-hitting buddy in town last week who was fortunate enough to play both Shoreacres and Chicago Golf while he was here.  He didn't think Shoreacres was anything particularly special while he thought Chicago Golf was easily the best course in town he'd seen.  I think there's about a 400 yard difference in length.  In terms of preference, I'd flip the order.  Time to retire to Scotland...

[Mark Bourgeois]

Addington, Lundin, Rye: there's plenty of course in these for most. Addy and Rye do it with 6 par 3s, Rye additionally with some ballbusting 4s. Lundin, now there's a wonder. Perhaps all three share a little bit of Merion: rather than a bunch of 4s at roughly the same distance they've got a few short 4s to help the backbreakers go down a little easier.

[Sean_A]

Addington, Lundin, Rye: there's plenty of course in these for most. Addy and Rye do it with 6 par 3s, Rye additionally with some ballbusting 4s. Lundin, now there's a wonder. Perhaps all three share a little bit of Merion: rather than a bunch of 4s at roughly the same distance they've got a few short 4s to help the backbreakers go down a little easier.

Rye pulls of the short yardage with five par 3s and only one par 5 - par 68 6497 yards from the backs.  From the backs Rye plays far more like 7100 yards than 6500 yards - its tough and long despite what the card says.

Ciao 

[Ally Mcintosh]

So anybody want to try and get the 20 best out of that list (no numerical order) and then let the next posts challenge whether any course should be replaced?

On the long list, there are clearly some absolutely world class courses in there (West Sussex, Rye) and then there are a number of 4th tier nominations...

[Sean_A]

Yes, the list has become a bit indiscriminate.  Of the courses I know fairly well or better I would go with

Addington
Brora
Camberly Heath
Cavendish
Edgbaston
Huntercombe
Knole Park
Liphook
New Zealand
Prestbury
Southerndown
Stoneham
Worplesdon

as decent shots for top 50 and I think all arguably a Doak 6.  

Kington, Royal West Norfolk & Beau Desert as shoe in top 50 - I think all are comfortable Doak 6

And no brainer top 25

North Berwick - arguably top 100 world
Royal Worlington (9 holes schmoles - this is a great course!) - arguably top 100 world
Rye - very strong argument for top 100 world
Swinley Forest - arguably top 100 world

I suspect Berkshire Red, Berkshire Blue, West Sussex and Elie are strong candidates.  I think Blackwell would be if it had a serious haircut.

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Updated above...

[Jud_T]

Here's a rough first stab at a Top 25 based on previous comments (Alphabetical).  Please comment on why courses should be added or subtracted.

Addington
Brora
Camberly Heath
Cavendish
Eastward Ho!
Edgaston
Huntercombe
Knole Park
Liphook
Machrihanish
Maidstone
New Zealand
Old Elm
Paraparaumu Beach
Pasatiempo
Prestbury
Royal West Norfolk
Rye
Southerndown
Stoneham
Swinley Forest
The Creek Club
West Sussex
White Bear YC
Worplesdon


  

[Sean_A]

The list looks pretty good!

Seeing as Beau was left off, I would say it could easily replace Stoneham because its greens are superior - and I do mean superior.

I can let Kington go because people can't be blamed for being stupid when they are inexperienced - tee hee.

I can't understand Worly being ignored.  Even if doubled, the yardage is well under 6500.  Besides, given the current state of Huntercombe being in a green and brown shroud of growth (I don't don't see the club actually getting it until people move on), I would easily take the Sacred 9.

I have to say, not having at least Berkshire Red on the list looks very odd, but I will leave it for someone else. Though, with Edgbaston too needing a haircut in a big way it is prime for replacing....

Ciao

 

[Mark Bourgeois]

I have not played most of the courses on the list so maybe I've got this substitution wrong: Worpy off, Lundin on. Lundin needs to be on, certainly before Worplesdon.

[Jud_T]

Sean,  

There are several worthy 9-holers, Worly being the best of the bunch.  In light of the revelation that this list is though, isn 't it best to have a similarly eye-opening list of 9-holers as a separate list?

[Tom_Doak]

With Sean's suggested changes, I think that's a very good list, but would probably be better if there were some more diversity -- a couple more American courses, a couple of European ones [I can't remember how long De Pan and Morfontaine are, they would be locks], maybe one in Japan.  I'll check out some yardages on those.  And what about Australia?  I guess Woodlands and Commonwealth have bumped up their yardages to meet "championship standard" -- they actually have one down there, and it was the ruination of Commonwealth.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean

Without addressing the architectural merits of 9-holers would you say stewards of 18-hole (or 36 or 54 hole) courses might be inclined to dismiss the applicability of their "lessons"? Nines, I would guess 18-holer people say, are less likely to feel "tournament pressures."

Tom, I had checked Tokyo, Kawana and Hirono -- none make the cut.

[Paul_Turner]

I like Edgbaston but even with a haircut it's not as good as Broadstone or Parkstone.  Ipswich/Purdis Heath?

I think Spa (Belgium) should be included for the sake of variety.  Pan is too long, I think Morfontaine is too?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, I had checked Tokyo, Kawana and Hirono -- none make the cut.

I was hoping Naruo would be shorter, but it's 6600+ .  The Ohshima course at Kawana would be a good candidate for the best 5000-yard courses -- there is some cool stuff there, but it's kind of wacky, and no match for those on this list.

Golf de Spa is a good choice for Simpson/Europe (or so I hear  ). 

[Frank Pont]

Tandridge (Colt) and Turfvaert (Pont) both fit the bill

[Thomas Dai]

Not having Beau Desert on a list of best courses below 6,500 yds would be like having a historic/classic/vintage motor race without a Ferrari or a Maserati or an Alfa on the grid.

To play Beau Desert at the moment, all brown and beige and firm and fast would I'm sure be thrilling (and tough).

http://www.bdgc.co.uk/course_image_gallery.asp

All the best.

[Sean_A]

I like Edgbaston but even with a haircut it's not as good as Broadstone or Parkstone.  Ipswich/Purdis Heath?

I think Spa (Belgium) should be included for the sake of variety.  Pan is too long, I think Morfontaine is too?

Paul

The fact that Broadstone is not a shoe in for something like this is a big tick against the place.  It shouldn't even be close between Edgbaston and Broadstone - the sites are that different in quality.  Unfortunately, Broadstone is now a dog's dinner to what it should be.  Given the current states of each course, I take Edgbaston 5.5 to 4.5.  Its quite a clever design and with better greens.  Its taken me about 6 plays over as many years, but I now see the quality.  I think the club relaying the greens has helped quite a bit as well.

Mark - do you think the folks at Worly worry much about tournament golf?

Why so little support for Leatherstocking?  The pix make it look ideal for a list of this sort.

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean that is exactly my point.