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Garland Bayley

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Re: Golfweek's Best 2013: Great Britain and Ireland (Modern)
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2013, 12:02:12 PM »
The Donald will be pleased.

Tom not so much.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mac Plumart

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Re: Golfweek's Best 2013: Great Britain and Ireland (Modern)
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2013, 02:01:44 PM »
Boom!  Trump crushes one!!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Golfweek's Best 2013: Great Britain and Ireland (Modern)
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2013, 02:34:49 PM »
Brian...

I wondered about that.  Where do you think is a more appropriate spot for Machrihanish Dunes?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Golfweek's Best 2013: Great Britain and Ireland (Modern)
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2013, 04:46:45 PM »
I really enjoy the Crighead Course at Crail.  Isn't as good as Clse House Colt, however, which doesn't even make this list.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark_F

Re: Golfweek's Best 2013: Great Britain and Ireland (Modern)
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2013, 06:48:51 PM »
Nice to see Carne ahead of Enniscrone, as it should be.  ;D

David_Elvins

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Re: Golfweek's Best 2013: Great Britain and Ireland (Modern)
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2013, 07:24:54 PM »
I have heard good things about Queenwood.

Is it as bad as the list suggests or would they not haveenough raters visiting? 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Chris DeNigris

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Re: Golfweek's Best 2013: Great Britain and Ireland (Modern)
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2013, 10:25:27 PM »
Brian...

I wondered about that.  Where do you think is a more appropriate spot for Machrihanish Dunes?

Not sure how BS would respond but...

Many would consider Doonbeg at 15 a bit too high...but I would easily prefer MDunes 7-3, maybe 8-2.

I would probably split even with Castle Stuart.

Soooo....top 15 wouldn't be a stretch.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Golfweek's Best 2013: Great Britain and Ireland (Modern)
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2013, 05:23:27 AM »
The Donald will be pleased.

Tom not so much.


I don't understand this Garland... No.7 is a very respectable position for The Renaissance Club given its private nature and considering that whilst being an excellent site by most people's standards, it's not near the best site that Tom has had to work with...

Disappointing to see Mach Dunes so low....

Not that I've been there but must say I'm surprised to see Rowallan Castle so high... Must make a visit....

David - Queenwood is a very good design. But it was built on heavyish soil and doesn't come close to a lot of the heathlands (that it is mimicking). However, I'd suspect access has left it quite low as well
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 05:25:20 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Sean_A

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Re: Golfweek's Best 2013: Great Britain and Ireland (Modern)
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2013, 08:00:54 AM »
I am always surprised Saunton West doesn't make this list.  I think it is in the same class as Carne - maybe a smidge of a peg down because of views, but right there with quality of design.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Golfweek's Best 2013: Great Britain and Ireland (Modern)
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2013, 09:26:19 AM »
I'll tell you which course every one of these lists misses when it comes to modern Irish parklands...

Killeen Castle by Nicklaus...

Never seen it mentioned anywhere but for me, it's the second best "big" modern parkland in Ireland after Adare....

Robin_Hiseman

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Re: Golfweek's Best 2013: Great Britain and Ireland (Modern)
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2013, 10:17:36 AM »
Remedy Oak is possibly worth a nod too.  Probably in the 45-50 range at best and where is Askernish?  Is it too raw? 

Here at EGD towers Rowallan Castle at 11 raised an amused eyebrow or two I can tell you! Portmarnock Links is the work of Stan Eby, not Jim Engh.  Stan would not be happy if he saw this!

Interesting to consider how the likes of St. Mellion, The Oxfordshire and East Sussex are nowhere to be seen anymore. 

There are a bunch of really good courses in here and for sure Mach Dunes is way better than 41.
2024: Royal St. David's(x2); Mill Ride(x7); Milford; Notts; JCB(x2), Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (North), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Francisco, Epsom, Casa Serena (CZ), Hayling

Garland Bayley

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Re: Golfweek's Best 2013: Great Britain and Ireland (Modern)
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2013, 11:01:07 AM »
Ally,

Tom suggested that Trump got to #63 on the Golf Architecture ranking by ballot stuffing. Now it comes out with a #1 where clearly no ballot stuffing would have been done.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Golfweek's Best 2013: Great Britain and Ireland (Modern)
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2013, 11:19:13 AM »
Ally,

Tom suggested that Trump got to #63 on the Golf Architecture ranking by ballot stuffing. Now it comes out with a #1 where clearly no ballot stuffing would have been done.


I understand now, Garland... I thought your reference was to Tom's course, not his opinion of Trump


Here at EGD towers Rowallan Castle at 11 raised an amused eyebrow or two I can tell you! Portmarnock Links is the work of Stan Eby, not Jim Engh.  Stan would not be happy if he saw this!


Whilst we're on the subject of Portmarnock Links, I just want to give a shout out to Fintan Brennan - the head greenkeeper - who just gets it...

Was there about a year ago and he'd done a great job in widening out playing areas with short grass run-offs, clearing some gorse and vegetation, brought on the fine grasses, done some minor shaping work himself (very good) and had designed a new 13th green.

If we had 50 Fintan Brennans on all our links courses, we'd be in a better place.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Golfweek's Best 2013: Great Britain and Ireland (Modern)
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2013, 11:33:05 AM »
Ally,

Tom suggested that Trump got to #63 on the Golf Architecture ranking by ballot stuffing. Now it comes out with a #1 where clearly no ballot stuffing would have been done.


Glad to see you've as much as admitted the possibility of ballot stuffing on the other list.

Also, being ranked the #1 modern course in GB & I by GOLFWEEK does not equal being in the top 100 in the world.  By my own count, Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart are solid contenders for the top 100 in the world, but neither is a lock for it.  And both of them are better than Trump Aberdeen as of today, no matter what a few panelists at GOLFWEEK might say.

GJ, I just don't think you give enough credit to the rest of the courses in the world.  And the same goes double for Mr. Trump.

Greg Tallman

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Re: Golfweek's Best 2013: Great Britain and Ireland (Modern)
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2013, 11:33:51 AM »
Ally,

Tom suggested that Trump got to #63 on the Golf Architecture ranking by ballot stuffing. Now it comes out with a #1 where clearly no ballot stuffing would have been done.

What makes you say that?  

Garland Bayley

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Re: Golfweek's Best 2013: Great Britain and Ireland (Modern)
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2013, 11:42:26 AM »
Ally,

Tom suggested that Trump got to #63 on the Golf Architecture ranking by ballot stuffing. Now it comes out with a #1 where clearly no ballot stuffing would have been done.

What makes you say that?  

??? Obviously, Dr. Klein told me to say it.  :P
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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Re: Golfweek's Best 2013: Great Britain and Ireland (Modern)
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2013, 11:44:23 AM »
...
GJ, I just don't think you give enough credit to the rest of the courses in the world. ...

What on earth could possibly bring you to that conclusion?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Golfweek's Best 2013: Great Britain and Ireland (Modern)
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2013, 01:41:12 PM »
...
GJ, I just don't think you give enough credit to the rest of the courses in the world. ...

What on earth could possibly bring you to that conclusion?


GJ:

Well, first of all, I have no idea who you are, what you know about golf, or what you've seen yourself.  How many of the top 100 courses have you seen?

The 63rd ranked course in the world according to the last GOLF Magazine rankings was Southern Hills in Oklahoma.  Have you ever been there?  How would you compare it to Trump International?  Which has the better set of greens?  Which course do you think Tommy Bolt or Ray Floyd or Tiger Woods would vote for?

The last five courses in that ranking (96-100) were Tokyo Golf Club, The Valley Club of Montecito, Highland Links, Durban Country Club, and Cabo del Sol (Ocean).  To be fair, I think Durban's inclusion is a bit suspect, and that some people vote for it in order to include a course from South Africa in the top 100 ... but still, it has four or five holes that are just magical.  How many holes at Trump International compare to the 3rd or 8th or 17th at Durban CC? 

And have you seen the other four courses?  They are just awesome.  You walk off the 18th green wanting to go right back out and try them again.  Somewhere along the way you've thought that it doesn't get any better than this.  But there are still 95 courses ranked above them, and most of those have a case to be ranked above them.

None of these rankings are really worth a crap ... but the courses that they include certainly are.  Anyone who proclaims a new course ought to be in a certain spot is skipping several steps ahead of himself.  First you've got to get there, and then the course has to impress you, and then you have to be able to understand why you're impressed.  And then you can start thinking about where the course ought to fit into the rankings ... if you've played enough of the others to be able to compare.

 

Garland Bayley

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Re: Golfweek's Best 2013: Great Britain and Ireland (Modern)
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2013, 02:17:56 PM »
Tom,

Skipping over and skimming messages can cause you to waste a lot of time, such as your last post.

My explanation to Ally, that he clearly got, was to indicate that I thought you would be disappointed to see the Trump course come out #1 at Golfweek given what you wrote on the other thread. I made no indication of where I thought the rankings should fall.

I suspect your are right, and the Golfweek panelists are wrong (as far as one can judge such things). Perhaps Sean Arble would characterize Castle Stuart as a golf course and Trump International as an arduous scenic hike.

Not having seen the courses I can only guess. My guess would be that it might play out like two courses I am familiar with. Palouse Ridge came out ranked higher than Wine Valley. Palouse Ridge has only fallen since, while Wine Valley has risen. Now only Washington State Cougars like Jordan Wall think so highly of Palouse Ridge. ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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