Paramount CC (New City, NY; Tillinghast): a photo tour (broken links fixed!)

[Mac Plumart]

Joe...

I am confused.  I was thinking you had the before and after mixed up as well.  

Your very last photo.  Is that after Jim's work?

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

Once again, thanks for the photo tour.

I thought that # 6 was a fantastic "skyline" green, from the tee, DZ and front recovery.

Agreed Pat.  Removing the last tree behind the green really makes it shine.

Now I wouldn't mind if that last big tree or two on the left approaching the green magically disappeared to open up that beautiful ridge and fescue....

[Joe Bausch]

Joe...

I am confused.  I was thinking you had the before and after mixed up as well.  

Your very last photo.  Is that after Jim's work?

I think I have them properly labeled now Mac. 

[Mac Plumart]

Got it.  Thanks!

[Joe Bausch]

Time to finish the photo tour on this steamy Sunday morning in the DelVal.

#13.  Par 3 (250 yards).

This is a pretty hefty 1-shotter from the tips, as supported by the No. 10 stroke hole.

Tee view:



From right of the bunker closer to the green:



From just short of the green (where you might be able to detect a bunker that was removed short and left):



From just long and left of the green:



#14.  Par 4 (353 yards).

Here's a short par 4 that really defends itself at the green.

Tee view:



Morning view of the approach:



Morning view from left of the green which slopes heavily to the right and somewhat to the front (note, small white flag showing where afternoon flag will be in the next photo):



Afternoon view from behind the green:




#15.  Par 4 (431 yards).

Here's a hole that might even bring out SArble to comment.   

Elevated tee view:



No floating bunkers here, this one the fairway cut right up to it:



This hole nicely depicts the rolling terrain on the back nine:



From short of the green:



#16.  Slight dogleg-left par 4 (427 yards).

This fairway cants pretty hard left so a tee shot needs to be land right in the fairway to end up perfect.

Tee view:



Approach view (care must be taken as there is H2O to the right of the green):



View back down the hole from the 9th tee:



#17.  Par 5 (520 yards).

Blind tee shot here:



After the initial rise I did not appreciate how much this how climbs:

2nd shot view:



Approach shot view to a green that tilts to the left:



Two later afternoon views.  This from right of the green:



From behind the green:



#18.  Par 3 (195 yards).

Paramount closes with one of the few reef holes Tilly ever did (if I'm remember Phil Young correctly!).

Tee view:



From short and left of the green:



Late afternoon view of the 18th green from the back of a tee on the 1st:



I really enjoyed the GCA.com day at Paramount.  Here's a place that is very good and getting even better.

My entire collection of pictures of Paramount are here:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Paramount/index.html

[David Harshbarger]

Joe, steam must be getting to you.  Looks like you cut and pasted 12-16 a second time at the beginning of 17.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe, steam must be getting to you.  Looks like you cut and pasted 12-16 a second time at the beginning of 17.

Wow, that was a strange cut and paste error!  Now corrected. 

[Joe Bausch]

I did now know much about Adolph Zukor, the man that owned the estate there originally.  Here is a Nov 1926 NYTimes article on him:

[Dan Herrmann]

Joe - thanks so much for posting the photos.  Paramount is certainly a member's club in that it would be a joy to play each and every day.  I really liked it before Jim's work, and I love it now!

[George Blunt]

I really enjoyed my time at Paramount, I only wish I had met more people during the day.

I suspect we have only just seen the beginning of the restoration, and as time progresses the small and important details will be even more apparent.  Steve and Brian spoke about continous improvement to mowing lines and set up, now that the heavy lifting has been completed.

I think it would be possible to reduce or possibly eliminate the rough around most of the greens, and mow to fairway height not just in front of the greens but the entire green surrounds.  Especially the tongues of rough between the top of the bunker and the green (#6 comes to mind)so that the ball will roll back down into the bunker instead of being caught up in the rough near the green. The ground game around those greeens would be so much fun.  Joe's pictures showing the LHS of 15 and 16 green illustrate a wonderful opportunity for this feature.  (Might have to do something about those ugly cart paths though.)

What does everyone else think?
 
Joe, we didn't meet; the pictures are great and it obviously takes a lot of time and effort on your behalf.

Thanks to all for a great day and best regards,

George

[Steve Lapper]

I really enjoyed my time at Paramount, I only wish I had met more people during the day.

George

George,

You most certainly would've met a great deal many more people that day had you not played with that "human hardwood tree" aka Sweeney!! He's a walking advertisement in the heat for reverse osmosis!

As to your other ideas, I'll wait to listen to what others say, but I might add it could be difficult finding a game with 95% of the club's members should we mow the connecting collars down. Too bad, really, as they'd find what your brethren downunder know as the fun found on "the rub of the green!" 

What say the rest of you folks who played there last week?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve,

# 1 and # 7 are amongst my favorite holes.

Regarding # 7, I think the old par 5 tee should be extended back further, and lowered.

And, the area immediately past the road maintained as HHA, thus discouraging anyone from trying to fly the road.
All play would be short of the road, with a concave 4 ft berm, closely mown, redirecting any ball back to the fairway (tee side)

On # 1, a four foot concave berm, closely mown, would block and redirect balls back to the fairway short of the road, leaving them between 150 and 160 (playing 170 and 180)

I also like the idea of reinstating the old traffic light system, where a traffic light on both # 1 and # 7 tee is synced with traffic lights to the right of # 1 fairway and to the right of # 7 fairway (reinstall the old light)

# 1 is a great starting hole, requiring a solid drive and a good second shot to a green that requires skill to putt or recover to.
Changing it would be a shame.

As to # 7, AWT was known for his great par 5's.
You just have to look down the road to Ridgewood for proof.
Restore # 7 as a par 5 with a significant HHA and you've got a great hole, especially with that turbo ramp.
You just need a little more length at the tee end.

You've got plenty of land, especially if you take the tee straight back from the abandoned long tee, closer to the 6th fairway.

And, the house with the pool is so far in the woods that no one will hit it.
In addition, you can guard against that by planting/relocation more trees right off the tee, preventing slices from going toward the house.

Take a look on Google Earth and you'll see that it's easily done.

It was a par 5 for more than 3/4 of a century, why lose a great AWT par 5 ?

I can't believe that you didn't call me earlier to help you solve these problems. 

[Steve Lapper]

Steve,

# 1 and # 7 are amongst my favorite holes.

Regarding # 7, I think the old par 5 tee should be extended back further, and lowered.

And, the area immediately past the road maintained as HHA, thus discouraging anyone from trying to fly the road.
All play would be short of the road, with a concave 4 ft berm, closely mown, redirecting any ball back to the fairway (tee side)

On # 1, a four foot concave berm, closely mown, would block and redirect balls back to the fairway short of the road, leaving them between 150 and 160 (playing 170 and 180)

I also like the idea of reinstating the old traffic light system, where a traffic light on both # 1 and # 7 tee is synced with traffic lights to the right of # 1 fairway and to the right of # 7 fairway (reinstall the old light)

# 1 is a great starting hole, requiring a solid drive and a good second shot to a green that requires skill to putt or recover to.
Changing it would be a shame.

As to # 7, AWT was known for his great par 5's.
You just have to look down the road to Ridgewood for proof.
Restore # 7 as a par 5 with a significant HHA and you've got a great hole, especially with that turbo ramp.
You just need a little more length at the tee end.

You've got plenty of land, especially if you take the tee straight back from the abandoned long tee, closer to the 6th fairway.

And, the house with the pool is so far in the woods that no one will hit it.
In addition, you can guard against that by planting/relocation more trees right off the tee, preventing slices from going toward the house.

Take a look on Google Earth and you'll see that it's easily done.

It was a par 5 for more than 3/4 of a century, why lose a great AWT par 5 ?

I can't believe that you didn't call me earlier to help you solve these problems.  

Pat,

  Since we are guilty of gross neglect for not consulting you first (...how could we ever have brought in Jim before thinking of you?   ), I'll try to respond to your architectural ideas.

On #7, we cannot move back and lower the existing tee. While it can go back to it's original length, there is an ingeniously located underground reservoir under that area. It serves to efficiently irrigate the areas btw #1 green and #6 green. We wouldn't want to lost that by lowering the teeing ground into it.

If we were to try to put it where the cart path alongside # 6 green, it would eliminate the pure horizon green aesthetic now there on #6.

The idea of a HHA on the far side of the road would just mean that longer hitter would hit 4-5 irons off the back tee and the lower, mid-hill, tees would still be able to go over the road.

There is little or no chance we could re-instate any "old traffic light system." The town won't entertain such a private hinderance to a public road. Of course it probably worked well back in your youth when electricity was first introduced to the world.

Berms can be constructed but are far more costly than one might think. Extensive drainage and rerouting of surface and underground water flows  away fro Zukor Rd are demanded by the city and county and would require major excavation and resurfacing of that stretch of the road. Additionally the berms would only be truly effective at heights in excess of 6-8ft.

Tilly par 5's are, like you mention, one of his strongest suits. But #7 NEVER envisioned a considerably traveled North-South artery by fast-driving automobiles.

Love the outside-the-box thinking, but some of the remedies are just too difficult to implement and have too great an impact on other areas of the course we are quite content to leave alone.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve,

If you can't lower the tee, just extend it back, there's's plenty of room.

Then, mow a good portion of the hill as fairway such that short tee shots get help in getting to the base of the hill

[Anthony Butler]

Steve,

My thanks to you and Brian for conceiving and holding the GCA day last Monday. It was great start to my vacation week.

Looking at the before and after photos,  you have really served Tillinghast's intent and philosophy by tying the bunkering back into the greens complexes, similar to what you see at his other courses around Metro NYC. The reshaped bunkers create a lot more drama with the approach shots. The changes at #3 being perhaps the best example of this.

As to the conundrum of #7, while it would be great to recapture a par 5, the logistical barriers you mention seem to make it impossible to play it in a manner consistent with the architect's intent. I recall Brian and I played it as a Par 5 a couple of years ago and it made more sense as a par 4.

I hit over the road with a driver on #1 and the only odd thing I noticed is that my ball landed in the fairway yet I couldn't see it from the tee due to some tree intrusion on the left.  Not sure what protection you need from people teeing off on #7, but you might think about removing a couple of those trees.

The green complexes have a lot of wonderful ground movement, which I experienced first hand at #12, 13, 15. With a little more local knowledge, I could probably get my ball rolling towards the hole at some stage...

One sign you're playing a great hole is that a golfer might have a short iron in his hand, yet still entertains uncertainty or doubt due to how the ball will travel after it lands or the unknown consequences of a poorly struck shot. Paramount now has several examples of this.

Thanks again to you and the Mandelbaum family for hosting us last Monday.

[David Harshbarger]

One last photo for the thread....when you have a skyline green, of course, it's set off by the sky.  On our round, the sky was alive when we got to the base of 6.

[Joe Bausch]

With the recent thread on fringeless greens, I thought I would bump this photo tour, which I'm quite proud of.

David, if you have an original of that photo above, I would love to have it.

[Bryan Icenhower]

And congratulations to Paramount head professional Steve Scott for advancing to the Sectional Qualifying Round.

[Joe Bausch]

And congratulations to Paramount head professional Steve Scott for advancing through tbe Sectional Qualifying Round.

He can play a little bit.   

[Ronald Montesano]

I am so good-looking... (edited since original comment is no longer necessary)

really, so good-looking.

[Tom Dunne]

to the sectional? wasn't yesterday the local qualifier?

Right, to the sectional. Steve shot 72 and birdied #18 in a three-man playoff to claim the last spot. Sectionals are at Old Oaks and Century on 6/2.

[Bryan Icenhower]

Edited with correct terminology.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Our course opens in two weeks here in Chicago.
Jim Urbina is overseeing work that started last August. many of the same shapers, too.  I visit at least once a week and marvel at the progress and subtle transformations occurring as the course continues to reveal itself emphasized by all redone bunkers (86) plus 9 new ones.

Loved the Paramont pics.

[Sean_A]

George B, I agree with you.  There is room for grassing line improvements. 

The coolest change for me the elimination of the right bunker on 5.  Visually, for me anyway, it makes the right look safer, but I suspect the trees are an issue from that angle.  Its a great example of luring golfers out of position. 

Joe - thanks for the pix.

Ciao

[George Blunt]

Sean, even a broken clock is right twice a day  .

And I agree re #5, every time I chicken out on that drive I end up too far right and have close to an impossible shot in.  Which I then confirm was impossible with my next shot.