Rustic Canyon (Hanse / Shackelford / Wagner) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 18 Posted

[Mark Saltzman]

Photos and yardages will be from the 7,028 yard Black Tees (73.4/133).

In his course profile, Ran notes that the man that misses the first fairway should be shot.  It's a good thing Ran was not the starter the day I played Rustic Canyon with a trio of GCAers as we'd have been a twosome for the rest of the round!  The first fairway is indeed a very wide one; but, the intimidation of the short bunker right, the gunch farther to the right, and the out-of-bounds lurking left, combined with first tee jitters, will have a surprising number of golfers missing the fairway on this opening 540 yard par-5.






Rustic Canyon, especially if playing firm, is a thinking man's golf course.  After a well-struck drive, golfers must decide whether to challenge the OB and a crossing dry-wash to leave a short approach from the left, or whether to lay-back to the right:






While laying back to the right seems like the 'obvious' choice, when the hole is playing downwind, golfers left with this short pitch wonder how they can keep their ball on the green.  Playing right takes away the ground-game option:




The green complex at the first is adequate; not one of the day's standouts.  The green tilts back toward the tee and fairway cut to the left leaves ample room to miss.

[Ronald Montesano]

In the Spanish of Buffalo, we call that un arroyo.

Can't believe you missed the first fairway...

Are the fairways as wide as at Sebonack? I can hit wedges from side to side out there.

How can you not keep a wedge on the green? You spin it, it stops, that's it.

[Joe Perches]

Thanks Mark.  Looking forward to seeing all your pictures.

It'll be interesting to see the variations that have developed between this photo tour and Ran's pictures from the original course review

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/rustic-canyon-golf-course/

(some of) Geoff Shackelford's pictures:
http://www.geoffshackelford.com/rustic-canyon-photos

That channel on 1 has changed a bit, both wider and softer.  I think it's less of a penalty today than it used to be.

I think that's true of almost all of the course actually.  It's more interesting features are softer than 10 years ago.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

To me #1 ast Rustic is like a short par 3.  You think you should make a birdie (maybe even an eagle 3 if you hit a good tee shot) but somehow, one little mistake, and you're looking at a hard par. 

As for the green, the challenging side, i think is the left side.  there's ample room left, and a little long, if you've bailed out with a 2nd a shot, but there's a little bump on the left side of the green that makes the recovery less than straight forward.

A very good, deceptively devilish starting hole.  But, yes... one should definitely be able to hit this fwy w/ their tee ball.

W

[Mark Saltzman]

In the Spanish of Buffalo, we call that un arroyo.

Can't believe you missed the first fairway...

Are the fairways as wide as at Sebonack? I can hit wedges from side to side out there.

How can you not keep a wedge on the green? You spin it, it stops, that's it.

Ron,

let's get serious, there's no way I'm missing that fairway 

Fairways as wide as Sebonack? Certainly.

The third question, I'm sure, is tongue in cheek.  Put it this way, it was windy enough and the course firm enough that this same guy that couldn't make the 235 yard carry on the 6th at Sleepy Hollow was considering going for the green in two on a 540 yard hole.

[Mike Schott]

Thanks Mark.  Looking forward to seeing all your pictures.

It'll be interesting to see the variations that have developed between this photo tour and Ran's pictures from the original course review

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/rustic-canyon-golf-course/

(some of) Geoff Shackelford's pictures:
http://www.geoffshackelford.com/rustic-canyon-photos

That channel on 1 has changed a bit, both wider and softer.  I think it's less of a penalty today than it used to be.

I think that's true of almost all of the course actually.  It's more interesting features are softer than 10 years ago.

I've seen the arroyo much wilder looking than in these pictures. It looks like they cleaned it up recently. I played it in January of this year.

[Josh Tarble]

I'm really looking forward to this Mark...thanks for starting it. Hope to read a lot of discussion as well.

[Bill Seitz]

I've only played it a few times and can't ever remember playing in a wind where going for it in two was the wrong play.  Even if you bail out left, there's plenty of room, and while it's not an easy up and down for birdie, it shouldn't be too difficult to make par there.  It's a good breather hole to start the round. 

[Lynn_Shackelford]

The green complex at the first is adequate; not one of the day's standouts.  The green tilts back toward the tee and fairway cut to the left leaves ample room to miss.



I would disagree slightly with this.  As you are hitting down the canyon, the green really doesn't slope from back to front.  It appears to, but doesn't.  It is one of the most deceptive in this regard on the course, and one of the most difficult to read.  When arriving in your car one must look for where the hole is cut.  If it is cut front left, there is no reason to attempt reaching it in two or going left on your second shot.  Either one will take a 3 or a 4 out of the equation.  Front left is best reached by a short wedge from the right side of the fairway.  Any short 3rd shot must land short of the hole, as the ball will release going down canyon.

[David Kelly]

The green complex at the first is adequate; not one of the day's standouts.  The green tilts back toward the tee and fairway cut to the left leaves ample room to miss.



I would disagree slightly with this.  As you are hitting down the canyon, the green really doesn't slope from back to front.  It appears to, but doesn't.  It is one of the most deceptive in this regard on the course, and one of the most difficult to read.  When arriving in your car one must look for where the hole is cut.  If it is cut front left, there is no reason to attempt reaching it in two or going left on your second shot.  Either one will take a 3 or a 4 out of the equation.  Front left is best reached by a short wedge from the right side of the fairway.  Any short 3rd shot must land short of the hole, as the ball will release going down canyon.

This is exactly correct.  On every approach and on every putt at Rustic Canyon the golfer has to keep in mind where he is in relation to the elevation change down the canyon.  Even though it looks like the first green is sloped back to front, if you have a long putt from the back of the green to the front you have to hammer the ball to get it to the cup (I still have trouble gauging how hard even after over 500 rounds there) and conversely if you are putting from the front of the green to the back you should be thinking about lagging.

As for playing down the left side on #1 unless you are going for the green in two and are using that side for a bailout I don't see any reason to layup to that side.

[Matthew Petersen]

How often do players try to reach the green in two? Does that cause any issues with the next group up on the tee having to wait?

I can't recall having played many reachable par 5 first holes, and I always thought this concern was part of the reason.

[Joe_Tucholski]

How often do players try to reach the green in two? Does that cause any issues with the next group up on the tee having to wait?

I can't recall having played many reachable par 5 first holes, and I always thought this concern was part of the reason.

Its a regular occurance to try and go at it in 2.  As far as messing up the start I never noticed a problem.  I think the wait would only be a problem if they were trying to get people off in 6 min intervals, luckily rustic has a 10 min interval.

[Jud_T]

Mark,

Have you played any other Hanse courses?

[Alex Miller]

The green complex at the first is adequate; not one of the day's standouts.  The green tilts back toward the tee and fairway cut to the left leaves ample room to miss.



I would disagree slightly with this.  As you are hitting down the canyon, the green really doesn't slope from back to front.  It appears to, but doesn't.  It is one of the most deceptive in this regard on the course, and one of the most difficult to read.  When arriving in your car one must look for where the hole is cut.  If it is cut front left, there is no reason to attempt reaching it in two or going left on your second shot.  Either one will take a 3 or a 4 out of the equation.  Front left is best reached by a short wedge from the right side of the fairway.  Any short 3rd shot must land short of the hole, as the ball will release going down canyon.

This is exactly correct.  On every approach and on every putt at Rustic Canyon the golfer has to keep in mind where he is in relation to the elevation change down the canyon.  Even though it looks like the first green is sloped back to front, if you have a long putt from the back of the green to the front you have to hammer the ball to get it to the cup (I still have trouble gauging how hard even after over 500 rounds there) and conversely if you are putting from the front of the green to the back you should be thinking about lagging.

As for playing down the left side on #1 unless you are going for the green in two and are using that side for a bailout I don't see any reason to layup to that side.

I would also add that the left side is only an acceptable bail out if the pin is not on the left side of the green. The slope off the left makes it very difficult to get a pitch or bump and run close, but it's a very doable shot with more green to work with.

The fairway is wide, but with more plays the player will see that there is still a ton of risk/reward on what is seemingly the simplest shot on the course. The right side can definitely provide a turbo boost for hitters with the length to go for the green, and it also provides a better angle in as the approach shot is played more back into the left to right sloping green (not to mention more visibility and more downhill approach).

The first at Rustic might be the best opening hole in California, though I think it's hard to see that in a photo tour or just one play.

[Bill Seitz]

How often do players try to reach the green in two? Does that cause any issues with the next group up on the tee having to wait?

I can't recall having played many reachable par 5 first holes, and I always thought this concern was part of the reason.

I don't seem to recall many pace of play issues, but I've only played it on weekdays, usually when I'm back in L.A. visiting family.  You also have the drivable third, so I would think that's where it would back up. 

Looking at the satellite view in Google Maps, have they always connected the first fairway to the night up by the first tee?  That leaves a potential for some very wide angles coming into #9, but I've never thought of hitting the ball over there.  Gives that green a square approach as opposed to what looks like a diamond from the normal position in the fairway (though it never felt like that in person). 

[Alex Miller]

Looking at the satellite view in Google Maps, have they always connected the first fairway to the night up by the first tee?  That leaves a potential for some very wide angles coming into #9, but I've never thought of hitting the ball over there.  Gives that green a square approach as opposed to what looks like a diamond from the normal position in the fairway (though it never felt like that in person). 

Bill I think they started that mowing line this year. I like it!

However, I think the only time it is useful is for a back left hole position as you're playing into a small bowl without having to naviate the ridge in the middle of the green. It's not useful for the other pin placements for these reasons:

Front left: better approached from left side, right up the valley
Front right: at least it's uphill when approached from the front and there is a fall of long when approached from the far right
Back right: There is some crowning in the shape of the green, so playing from the front is easier as it's all one even slope up to the pin.

[Jason Thurman]

I got to play Rustic Canyon a month ago while in LA for a conference. I really liked it, and left feeling like I'd need to play it another 20 times to understand everything it has going on. I'm excited to get a chance to hear some more thoughts from people with more experience than I as this thread progresses.

[DMoriarty]

The first is better than it looks in pictures.  Rustic is so wide and the ground movement so subtle that photos tend to flatten everything out, and this is definitely the case on the first.  Angles matter on the approach, and the preferred angles vary with the pin position.   The green works very well with the hole.  As Lynn mentioned, it only looks like there is a pronounced back to front slope, but it doesn't play that way.  (There is pronounced slope for a small part of the front left portion of the green, but balls landing beyond the front third of the green often end up over, even on lofted approaches.)   Plenty of room to bail out left, but there is a slight mound off the left edge of the green that can cause problems from over there.  

I see lots of talk of potential birdies and eagles, and it is certainly a possibility because the hole is wide and plays shorter than the yardage.  But in reality one doesn't see an abundance of made putts on this green. There are plenty of comically bad putts, though.  Typically, the first time player will be somewhat confused about how an approach that should be to the middle of the green ended up well over and in the rough. Sometimes this is accompanied by the first of many complaints that the distance markers must be off.  Then the golfer will chip back and expect the ball to run out, and the ball will stop dead no more than halfway to the hole.  If the golfer is a slow learner then the putt will be the same.  Then a complaint about slow the greens.  Or down canyon they will hit it twice as far as needed because it looks uphill.  Some even complain that the green is inconsistent; too fast one direction and too slow the other.  

It is an appropriate welcome to Rustic Canyon.  

[Matthew Sander]

That ditch or dry wash seems like the perfect hazard. No penalty strokes and you'll find your ball, but I would imagine that plenty of difficulty and awkwardness lurk in there.

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark,

Have you played any other Hanse courses?

Jud, yes, I've played Inniscrone.  The Horse Course at The Prairie Club, too, if that counts.

Also planning to play Boston GC with a certain ex-GCAer in September!

[Mark Saltzman]

The 460 yard par-4 second hole at Rustic Canyon plays in the same direction as the first.  And, like the first, has out of bounds running the length of the left side.  Only the distant bunker gives a clue of the preferred angle of approach.




Perhaps the most confusing feature on the golf course is this bath tub sized bunker 260 yards out that actually faces away from the tee!  Is it meant to be in play from the 2nd tee, or on the 5th, or both or neither?  I'll let the Rustic regulars explain...




Playing away from the out-of-bounds leaves this view from the right.  Effectively using force perspective, the top-line of the bunker matches the green's shaping making it appear as though the bunker is green side...




From the left-centre of the fairway, after challenging the out of bounds, the golfer is rewarded with a clear view of the green.  Most importantly, the golfer will play his approach into the tilt of the green.  Approaching this right-to-left tilted green from the right, especially if downwind, is a considerable challenge...




One of my playing partners said this is the best green complex on the golf course.  Hopefully he will choose to explain why.  If nothing else, these pictures help to show the leftward slope of the green...

[Alex Miller]

I am the one who picks this green complex as my favorite! Though 4, 12, 13, et others are all so good too!

This is another fairway with 80 yards of width as that tiny bunker that Mark showed is oriented the wrong way currently and not a worry. (Also 290 from the tee but plays shorter downhill)

Depending on where the pin is, the left side of the fairway is preferred 90% of the time, which is fantastic as the OB left and trench cutting through the fairway do not make it a guaranteed find. When I played with Mark however, the pin was back center, which meant that the preferred approach angle, while semi-blind, was from the right side of the fairway so that the golfer could avoid the knob in the middle of the green when accessing the back shelf.

I think I've only missed this green right once or twice, though going left is only an easy up and down if you're pin high. I love the way the green slopes hard away from the right hand bunkers, though the previously mentioned knob in the middle of the green really makes things a lot more interesting, so that like the 4th hole it is actually the most treacherous feature on the hole and dictates strategy all the way back to the tee.

The green is also simultaneously a success as front to back sloping and benched into a side-slope, which I can't think of another example of off the top of my head. It's really amazing that for a 460 yard hole such bold contours work so well. It accepts a running approach and often rewards it, and recoveries from the left-side chipping area are far more difficult than they appear, though the bogey golfer who can't clear the greenside bunkers will always have an opportunity for a hard earned par from there.

[Mark Saltzman]

Alex, that post is what this site is all about. Awesome stuff!

[John Mayhugh]

Thanks for doing the photo tour. Rustic Canyon has had a lot of GCA discussion in the past, but it's nice to get additional perspectives. 

It's interesting to see comments on the first couple of holes and how much more there is to be revealed through repeated play.

One suggestion - you might also mention Jim Wagner in the heading.   

[Mark McKeever]

Im confused as to the purpose of the small bunker facing the wrong way.

MM