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Scott Warren

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 11-100 now posted
« Reply #100 on: July 09, 2013, 05:51:35 PM »
Has Dornoch been listed yet? I don't recall seeing it.

Mac Plumart

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 31-100 now posted
« Reply #101 on: July 09, 2013, 05:59:44 PM »
With all lists, it is important to grasp the criteria in order to understand what the lists tell you.

Mac,

Nobly put and I agree to be sure, but let's live in reality.  Readers aren't making the distinction you make above.  I have NEVER seen a list produced by any publication from golf courses to diapers that doesn't imply that their list communicates the best of that genre.  It's implicit in the techniques used to market and publish these lists that the list is arrived at with the best methods, and is therefore as infallible as these lists can be.  This is why statisical analysis is so important to Digest, Links and GW, and also why it isn't so important to Golf and Golf Architecture.  They all think they have it right.

Which is why none of them are right.  Which is why composite lists of each magazine mean nothing.  Which is why I'm inclined--less and less--to put any stock whatsoever in a ranking of golf architecture.  

Ben...

You are correct, for the most part, I believe.

I disagree, at the margin, with you on this, however.  I can't say there is no stock whatsoever in these lists.  There is some reason why (aside from psychological and behavioral patterns) that lots of the same courses keep showing up again and again and again on these lists, despite changes in criteria.  I think that reason is, the courses in question are really good!   8)

Now, where they rank precisely on each and every list among with different sets of criteria is simply a matter of preference and bias.  

And, of course, sometimes non-sensical noise enters the lists all to often.

But, again, I think your main points are correct.  You've won me over on these points.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Dane Hawker

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 11-100 now posted
« Reply #102 on: July 10, 2013, 03:34:12 PM »
Top Ten will may look like this

1. Open Course
2. Royal Country Down
3. Royal Melbourne
4. National GL A
5. Pine Valley
6. Augusta
7. Cypress
8. Pebble
9. Shinnecock
10. Dornoch
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 05:02:35 PM by Dane Hawker »

Eric Smith

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 11-100 now posted
« Reply #103 on: July 10, 2013, 03:53:29 PM »
FYI #'s 10 thru 6 are up.

jonathan_becker

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 11-100 now posted
« Reply #104 on: July 10, 2013, 09:15:03 PM »
Royal Melbourne is #10?

That's still quite a good ranking but considering these are architects voting I would've imagined it being closer to top 5

Mark Saltzman

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John_Conley

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 6-100 now posted
« Reply #106 on: July 11, 2013, 08:53:58 AM »
5 - National Golf Links of America
4 - Augusta National

Joel_Stewart

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 6-100 now posted
« Reply #107 on: July 11, 2013, 10:10:15 AM »
Cypress Point, Pine Valley and the Old Course are left.  No surprise.   

Eric Smith

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 6-100 now posted
« Reply #108 on: July 11, 2013, 10:17:53 AM »
What a fantastic quote from Eric Iverson, uderneath the listing of Augusta National at No. 4:

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Root/Home-actualpage/Articles-actualpage/Article/tabid/70/ItemId/2811/Default.aspx

Although unspoken, the idea of Augusta remains among the strongest inspirations for our work: finding and playing one’s ball from nearly anywhere, contour rather than hazards the primary driver of strategy, and abundant short grass from which to craft creative shots for recovery play.

Garland Bayley

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 6-100 now posted
« Reply #109 on: July 11, 2013, 11:42:07 AM »
3 Pine Valley
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Sabino

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 6-100 now posted
« Reply #110 on: July 11, 2013, 12:25:41 PM »
Brian S - I agree with you, biggest omissions are actually Kawana and Hirono. Need to include some Japanese architects in the voting next time.
Author: How to Play the World's Most Exclusive Golf Clubs and Golf's Iron Horse - The Astonishing, Record-Breaking Life of Ralph Kennedy

http://www.top100golf.blogspot.com/

Thomas Dai

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 6-100 now posted
« Reply #111 on: July 12, 2013, 06:12:06 AM »
A course that has appeared in admittedly only the higher reaches, like 80-99, of a number of top-hundred world rankings over the past few years but has not made this architects listing is The Emirates Club, in Dubai.

Okay I know there were other courses in pretty hot, arid climates before it opened for play in 1988, but The Emirates was a game changer in that it introduced green-grass golf to the Middle East and has since been followed by a whole series of further grass courses in that part of the world. It's also a seriously good golf course, a strong test of golf, and constructed in terrain where there was absolutely no vegetation at all beforehand, just wind blown sand hundreds of feet deep, and at 45* nearly ever day for months on end surely building and maintaining it is one hell of an achievement. A top-100 achievement? Just a thought.
All the best

Will Smith

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 6-100 now posted
« Reply #112 on: July 12, 2013, 09:05:35 AM »
Eric,

I agree. Eric Iverson's quotes is really a great glimpse into the minds of Doak and his team. I believe Bill and Ben have similar beliefs but I am not sure I have heard it put so succinctly as what Eric said. So far this quote (and it should be read in its entirety) is the most interesting nugget to be found in this Top 100. 

Joel_Stewart

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 6-100 now posted
« Reply #113 on: July 12, 2013, 09:53:30 AM »
3. Pine Valley
2. Cypress Point
1. St. Andrews (Old)

No surprises.

Gene Greco

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 6-100 now posted
« Reply #114 on: July 12, 2013, 10:30:05 AM »
                                                                          CYPRESS POINT

                             "Repeatedly fills every human sensory faculty with pleasurable memories.." - Michael Hurzdan




"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Ronald Montesano

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 6-100 now posted
« Reply #115 on: July 12, 2013, 10:53:37 AM »
                                                                          CYPRESS POINT

                             "Repeatedly fills every human sensory faculty with pleasurable memories.." - Michael Hurzdan

Wait, I thought that quote referenced Southampton after a tear-ass photo shoot with Gene Greco as chauffeur...
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mac Plumart

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 6-100 now posted
« Reply #116 on: July 12, 2013, 11:49:44 AM »
Joel...I think there are a ton of surprises on the list.

Starting at 100 and moving up, I am blown away by some of the courses on the list.  And The Old Course is not atop any other Top 100 list that I can think of right now.

I think there is good food for thought here.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Adam Lawrence

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 6-100 now posted
« Reply #117 on: July 12, 2013, 12:12:28 PM »
I've been keeping a low profile on this thread for obvious reasons ( ;)) but I thought I'd just say that the full report, complete with lots of additional commentary from our voters and some of the designers of the courses in question, is now online at our site. See http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Architects’-Choice-the-full-report/2818/Default.aspx.

In response to some of the points people have made, I totally agree that we'll need to refine the methodology if and when we do this again. We aren't Golf Digest, and we don't have people we can put onto researching this stuff full time, so it's basically something Toby and I have done in between putting the magazine together, other writing commitments (in my case) and trying to run a company (in his). Still, I'm really pleased with the results - I think we've highlighted some courses that other rankings miss, and made some good points about the value of design. There are courses in the list that made me go 'Huh?', but it's not fiddled in any way; we excluded a tiny number of ballots that were obviously designed to hype the architects' own work, and that is it. From our web traffic numbers and the activity on our Twitter and Facebook channels, people are talking about design, which has to be a good thing.

Finally, I'd like to thank all the designers that voted and helped us out with comments.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mac Plumart

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 6-100 now posted
« Reply #118 on: July 12, 2013, 12:17:15 PM »
From our web traffic numbers and the activity on our Twitter and Facebook channels, people are talking about design, which has to be a good thing.

Absolutely!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Gene Greco

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 6-100 now posted
« Reply #119 on: July 12, 2013, 01:32:25 PM »
                                                                          CYPRESS POINT

                             "Repeatedly fills every human sensory faculty with pleasurable memories.." - Michael Hurzdan

Wait, I thought that quote referenced Southampton after a tear-ass photo shoot with Gene Greco as chauffeur...

No, Ronald. That wasn't pleasurable sensory overload.

THAT was an adrenaline rush!!
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Thomas Dai

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 6-100 now posted
« Reply #120 on: July 12, 2013, 04:57:11 PM »
A course that has appeared in admittedly only the higher reaches, like 80-99, of a number of top-hundred world rankings over the past few years but has not made this architects listing is The Emirates Club, in Dubai.

Okay I know there were other courses in pretty hot, arid climates before it opened for play in 1988, but The Emirates was a game changer in that it introduced green-grass golf to the Middle East and has since been followed by a whole series of further grass courses in that part of the world. It's also a seriously good golf course, a strong test of golf, and constructed in terrain where there was absolutely no vegetation at all beforehand, just wind blown sand hundreds of feet deep, and at 45* nearly ever day for months on end surely building and maintaining it is one hell of an achievement. A top-100 achievement? Just a thought.
All the best

Thomas, I agree. It is a seriously good golf course with a handful of really iconic holes - the topography of the site is perfect and although it is a warm season grass course with no scope at all for ground game, it still manages to hold interest on virtually every hole. The whole vibe of the place is top notch, in fact. I would certainly include the Emirates in a personal top 100 and would not begrudge it a World top 100 spot in a major magazine.

Brian, perhaps not many have seen it or played it. If so, a shame. And the area surrounding it as seen on TV theses days when they play the Desert Classic is nothing like what it was when the course was first built when it was truly a green golfing oasis with just miles and miles and miles of pure sand, no rocks or vegetation at all, just pure sand all around it, nothing else nearby either, oh, except for a camel farm at the top of a big sand hill a couple of miles out the back and one enormous walled Sheiks palace by the nearest beachfront.
All the best

Greg Taylor

Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 6-100 now posted
« Reply #121 on: July 12, 2013, 06:45:22 PM »
What a fantastic quote from Eric Iverson, uderneath the listing of Augusta National at No. 4:

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Root/Home-actualpage/Articles-actualpage/Article/tabid/70/ItemId/2811/Default.aspx

Although unspoken, the idea of Augusta remains among the strongest inspirations for our work: finding and playing one’s ball from nearly anywhere, contour rather than hazards the primary driver of strategy, and abundant short grass from which to craft creative shots for recovery play.

Great quote - never thought of ANGC in that way.

Good to see Tobacco Road make #50.

Leo Barber

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 6-100 now posted
« Reply #122 on: July 13, 2013, 07:30:30 AM »
A list based on pure architecture was surprised to see Paraparaumu Beach omitted. On Southern Hemisphere emphasis I would include National Moonah, Woodlands, 13th Beach "beach" and The Dunes as arguable cases.     

Anders Rytter

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 6-100 now posted
« Reply #123 on: July 14, 2013, 08:12:29 AM »
I wonder how many of the 45% that haven't got Cypress Point in their top 10 have actually seen in? Not that I have, but  a  pure counting of votes would be positively biased towards open to all courses, like TOC. I would assume that the vast majority of voters have seen TOC?

To be fair TOC is number one on more ballots thats is was on, than any other course in the top 10.

Dane Hawker

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Re: GCA Architects' Choice Top-100... 6-100 now posted
« Reply #124 on: July 14, 2013, 06:39:34 PM »
A list based on pure architecture was surprised to see Paraparaumu Beach omitted. On Southern Hemisphere emphasis I would include National Moonah, Woodlands, 13th Beach "beach" and The Dunes as arguable cases.     

Would only be a handful who have seen it in guessing. Look forward to catching up tomorrow Leo, dial that wind down!

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