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Steve Salmen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2013, 09:07:10 PM »
Congratulations to all involved.  I really enjoyed the original  course and will more easily justify return trips with the additional course.

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2013, 09:33:05 PM »
Jim,

Thanks for the update.  That's great news!!

Congrats to TD and Renaissance Golf.  Who would have thought there would be a chance to work in your backyard again.

Ken

Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2013, 09:34:54 PM »
Awesome news!!

Andy Shulman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2013, 05:14:33 AM »
I played Forest Dunes as a single in mid-May 2013, spending the night in the new lodge.  The course is outstanding, very much deserving of the accolades it's received.  The lodge rooms are very nice and - at least at that time of year - were very reasonably priced.  Despite that and the allure of a Doak designed course, I'm still stunned that the owner thinks he can make money by selling land and rounds of golf in the middle of nowhere.  Maybe that's why I work for someone else!  Anyway, here's what I observed during my visit:

  • Dining - You can either eat all your meals at the clubhouse, which serves breakfast, lunch and dinner, or drive about 15 minutes into Roscommon.  Between the two is.....literally nothing.  The road leading from the golf course entrance into town is paved, but unmarked.  No white or yellow lane markings and no signage.  It is, even more so than Bandon, remote...without the ocean views.
  • Lodging - Appealing lodging options are limited to the new lodge, which only has 14 rooms.
  • Travel - The course is a three-plus hour drive from the nearest major airport in Detroit.  I flew into Traverse City, about 90 minutes away, via Detroit, but it's not a major airport and doing so adds to the hassle factor.
  • Other Activities - Well, there's a bowling alley at Fred's of Roscommon, where I also had a nice dinner.  At least at Bandon, you can bird watch and drive the Pacific coastline.

None of these issues detracted from my experience, but one or more of them are likely to be deterrents for many.  And, while I don't profess to know the economics of the golf business, I do wonder how many of these out of the way golf-only destinations us dedicated hackers can support.  Brad Klein made a similar point on his recent podcast with Geoff Shackleford and - as much as I enjoyed Forest Dunes - I have to agree with him.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 05:18:42 AM by Andy Shulman »

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2013, 05:45:56 AM »
I played Forest Dunes as a single in mid-May 2013, spending the night in the new lodge.  The course is outstanding, very much deserving of the accolades it's received.  The lodge rooms are very nice and - at least at that time of year - were very reasonably priced.  Despite that and the allure of a Doak designed course, I'm still stunned that the owner thinks he can make money by selling land and rounds of golf in the middle of nowhere.  Maybe that's why I work for someone else!  Anyway, here's what I observed during my visit:

  • Dining - You can either eat all your meals at the clubhouse, which serves breakfast, lunch and dinner, or drive about 15 minutes into Roscommon.  Between the two is.....literally nothing.  The road leading from the golf course entrance into town is paved, but unmarked.  No white or yellow lane markings and no signage.  It is, even more so than Bandon, remote...without the ocean views.
  • Lodging - Appealing lodging options are limited to the new lodge, which only has 14 rooms.
  • Travel - The course is a three-plus hour drive from the nearest major airport in Detroit.  I flew into Traverse City, about 90 minutes away, via Detroit, but it's not a major airport and doing so adds to the hassle factor.
  • Other Activities - Well, there's a bowling alley at Fred's of Roscommon, where I also had a nice dinner.  At least at Bandon, you can bird watch and drive the Pacific coastline.

None of these issues detracted from my experience, but one or more of them are likely to be deterrents for many.  And, while I don't profess to know the economics of the golf business, I do wonder how many of these out of the way golf-only destinations us dedicated hackers can support.  Brad Klein made a similar point on his recent podcast with Geoff Shackleford and - as much as I enjoyed Forest Dunes - I have to agree with him.

These so called "issues" also have to be delt with when playing Arcadia Bluffs. AB has been going strong for nearly 15 years, where their tee sheet is nearly full all year long.
  It proves if you give the public a great course, great conditions and pricing that isn't all the wall, you can be successful. Both AB and FD have graced numerous magazine covers and garnered many awards. I think that this is why Tullymore/St Ives works in Michigan as well. I also think that's why courses like High Point failed. Something in that business model was not right. It's not always about location.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2013, 10:13:43 AM »
Well Arcadia Bluffs charged me $100 (I f I remember correctly at 4pm with no guarantee you will get all 18 in; we did however) greens fee to play a round there. Prior to 4pm I think it was $180. That certainly helps the Arcadia Bluffs' bottom line. I played High Pointe early in the morning that same day before heading to Aracadia Bluffs and I don't think I paid more than $40 for an 18 hole round with a cart. Add to the fact that right across the street from the former High Pointe is the Traverse City Resort with 36 holes certainly didn't help them either. Arcadia Bluffs is a "destination" (purely for golf anyway) course and High Pointe is not. Although High Pointe was an enjoyable (and memorable round) Arcadia has world class Lake Michigan views that are incredible. I will most certainly play the new course at Forest Dunes but it will be an "on my way" course not so much a destination.
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2013, 11:21:11 AM »
Great news.  Now I have no excuse for not getting up there.  Richard- Imagine this golf trip:  Arcadia, Crystal, Kingsley, Black Forest, Forest Dunes x2, Belvedere.  All within driving distance of what, 20mm people?  Pure Michigan!
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2013, 11:38:18 AM »
Great News!

Congrats Tom!

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2013, 11:51:54 AM »
The addition of a second course by Renaissance Golf will almost certainly attract a lot more attention to this already idyllic golf getaway. I loved Forest Dunes from the moment we arrived and count the couple of days and nights spent there as one of my all-time favorite golf trips.

I'd also add that some of the information Andy provide above isn't entirely accurate. I talked to someone there at Forest Dunes today who confirmed that they will continue to offer Stay & Play packages with lodging options in both the 16 - room Lodge as well as the 6 cottages on the property. On our visit, we stayed in one of the lake front cottages, which was awesome. You keep your cart for the duration of your stay and can safely 'drive' home under the stars after a night at the clubhouse. Pure Michigan is right.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2013, 03:08:13 PM »
Bob,

Thanks for the thread that brought this to our attention.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2013, 05:04:21 PM »
Best of luck to all involved and who intend to play. Memory is a bit spotty but if it serves, a group looked at buying Forest Dunes not quite a decade ago and determined, at that time, the location was too remote. Now, to be fair, they were interested in a strictly private club and while they loved FD, their “demographics” people said it was too remote, and put the kibosh on the deal. So while the group was in the area, they decided to drive around Northern Michigan looking at other courses and land and found a course that was struggling (think early to mid-2000’s) and worked out a deal with the owners to become involved. It was at that time that this course/club went from a golf only private course to being marketed as “The most Exclusive Gated Golf Community in the Midwest”, complete with weekly ads in the Wall Street Journal, etc.

It didn’t turn out so well, though the course was recently purchased by members and is operational. Wish them luck as well.


Lochenheath??
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2013, 05:08:26 PM »
Best of luck to all involved and who intend to play. Memory is a bit spotty but if it serves, a group looked at buying Forest Dunes not quite a decade ago and determined, at that time, the location was too remote. Now, to be fair, they were interested in a strictly private club and while they loved FD, their “demographics” people said it was too remote, and put the kibosh on the deal. So while the group was in the area, they decided to drive around Northern Michigan looking at other courses and land and found a course that was struggling (think early to mid-2000’s) and worked out a deal with the owners to become involved. It was at that time that this course/club went from a golf only private course to being marketed as “The most Exclusive Gated Golf Community in the Midwest”, complete with weekly ads in the Wall Street Journal, etc.

It didn’t turn out so well, though the course was recently purchased by members and is operational. Wish them luck as well.


Lochenheath??


That was my thought as well. I played it a few years ago when I was in Glen Arbor for a week.
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Bob_Garvelink

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2013, 10:20:52 PM »
Gents,

This will put Forest Dunes into elite company!  What people outside Michigan don't understand is FD is right off I-75 which is right on the way to Gaylord or Petoskey.  Although it is a bit off the been path it still gets plenty of play.  Try and get a tee time during prime time and you will see what I'm talking about.  Many groups who typically take their groups to Boyne, Treetops, Garland, Shanty Creek, etc will now move their trips to Forest Dunes.  The only thing FD was lacking was another course and I have no doubt that this will end up paying huge dividends.  Great Job FD and there is no better place in the World to golf than Northern Michigan.  Yes I'm a homer and damn proud of it!

Cheers!

Bob
"Pure Michigan"

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2013, 12:27:39 AM »
Anyone want to bet that Doak steps in and trumps the existing FD course? 

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2013, 05:32:00 AM »
Anyone want to bet that Doak steps in and trumps the existing FD course? 

I am sure that most on this site will assume this will be the case just because TD is involved.  And it may be, but it's public opinion. Regardless, this is great news for FD. Don't think for a second that Jim Bluck won't have both courses in flawless conditions. That's one Supt that can dial it in!
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2013, 09:41:42 AM »
I recommend Forest Dunes to anyone traveling to Northern Michigan.  It is a worthy destination right now.  Anthony is correct, FD is one of the best conditioned courses I have ever played.  

The bar is set high for the next course!

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2013, 09:56:28 AM »
Anyone want to bet that Doak steps in and trumps the existing FD course? 

Safe bet. He's already done it twice when building a second course.
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Ryan Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2013, 09:59:44 AM »
Anyone want to bet that Doak steps in and trumps the existing FD course? 

I sure hope so. My Friday drive up to Petoskey may be changed forever!
"Bandon is like Chamonix for skiers or the North Shore of Oahu for surfers,” Rogers said. “It is where those who really care end up."

Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2013, 10:14:11 AM »
Trumping the existing course is going to be tough to do, but if anyone can do it, it's Tom.  My future trips to northern MI are forever changed for the positive!

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2013, 01:37:48 PM »
Can anyone in the know tell us more about the site for the new course? 

Ryan Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2013, 04:32:20 PM »
"Bandon is like Chamonix for skiers or the North Shore of Oahu for surfers,” Rogers said. “It is where those who really care end up."

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2013, 05:18:58 PM »
Not sure why this is public knowledge, but a good homer case could be made for either of them, even if #2 could probably use the work and the press more than #1 at this point in his career.  Either way, I'm fairly confident that the client will get a special product.  I have a buddy who's a strong player who has an annual trip to FD with a bunch of guys.  The prospect of 2 special courses should put this place permanently on the map, doubters notwithstanding.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Matthew Lloyd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2013, 06:12:02 PM »
This is amazing news for anyone that golfs in Michigan... which appears to be a lot of us. This will be an annual destination for me for sure.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2013, 09:11:33 AM »
Glad to hear that the second course at Forest Dunes is moving forward. I'm a big fan of the Weiskopf course ad I look forward to seeing what Tom has planned.

It's a treat to first learn about the news here on GCA. However, as a PR pro, I'm also dumbfounded by FD's decision to not make a bigger announcement of the news. Instead, they have simply a post here and burried in the video posted above. Of course, they have time before the course gets local approvals but if it's a real estate play, there's no reason to wait before they sell some lots.  
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2013, 09:44:11 AM »
Glad to hear that the second course at Forest Dunes is moving forward. I'm a big fan of the Weiskopf course ad I look forward to seeing what Tom has planned.

It's a treat to first learn about the news here on GCA. However, as a PR pro, I'm also dumbfounded by FD's decision to not make a bigger announcement of the news. Instead, they have simply a post here and burried in the video posted above. Of course, they have time before the course gets local approvals but if it's a real estate play, there's no reason to wait before they sell some lots.  

Howard:

I think that they are waiting (and I am waiting) to say anything about the course because they don't have permits in hand, and we haven't even finalized the design contract yet.  They did not intend Golf Club Atlas to be their big announcement ... they were just trying to let their members know what they are planning before the end of the season, and Bob Garvelink posted about it here, causing them to feel the need to respond.

You can't sell lots before you plat them, and you can't plat them before the plan is final, and you can't finalize the plan before you sign the contract.  And I was committed to be in Europe when their member meeting was scheduled.

Don't worry, we will get our p.r. act together before the course is ready to open.  There's plenty of time for that; the best case is it's ready in the late summer of 2015, but that's assuming the permits don't take any time.  However, the p.r. challenge is going to be interesting on a number of levels, because they've bought into my view that we do NOT want too many details of the design leaking out until the course is ready, so that early visitors can explore it for the first time with fresh eyes.

All I can tell you for now is that the intent is to do something really different than what we've been building lately.  The property is fairly flat, and sandy, but we intend to keep the bunkering subdued instead of relying on the bunkers for visual interest.  We won't move much dirt, but what we do move will be to make some really abrupt features -- deep gullies and mounds and ridges.  And the course is probably going to be on the short side, by choice, since the original course is plenty long and we don't feel the need to compete on "resistance to scoring".

Apart from that, I can only tell you that I am particularly excited to be working close to home again for the first time in ages, and that I intend to spend more time on site at Forest Dunes than anything I've worked on in years.  I'm really excited that the client, Lew Thompson, has bought into the ideas I've been thinking about for the past few years, and is giving me a chance to bring them to life.  And I also want to thank my friends Norm Sinclair and Nick Ficorelli for coming to the Michigan Golf Hall of Fame induction this summer, listening to me say that I wanted to slow down and spend more time on fewer projects closer to home, and promptly mention that to the g.m. at Forest Dunes the next day when he mentioned the possibility of building a second golf course.

For more than that, you'll probably have to wait until I've got a few holes built.