[archie_struthers]

 


Rj ....you are missing my drift. I'm sure you can keep pace wither carrying or with a trolley. I know I can , as can a lot of my ex looper friends. However the majority of Americans  can't , and if you allow walking its very hard to say RJ and Archie can walk on a busy weekend but Bill and Joe can't because they are too slow. Believe me , even at a privately owned club the management needs to remove controversy and not have to make personal decisions on a daily basis. Most of your staff just can't handle the pressure and you need to keep the members friendly and not in armed camps. This you make decisions that you deem reasonable to make the club a fun , friendly place for all.

It's just like initiation fees. Say you paid $2500 ten years ago to join a club. If times get tough the initiation becomes a barrier to recruiting new blood. So what do you do ? If you waive it many will feel they got a bad deal , as new members who haven't supported the club don't have to pay as they did. If you charge it , you can't replace members lost thru attrition.   So , you don't waive it , but let new members pay it over 5,10 or even 20 years. No one gets in without paying , so there is equity , but $100 to $200 a year isn't an impediment to your business. 

[RJ_Daley]

Archie, of course I don't run a club, so perhaps I don't feel the tension between customers likes and dislikes of users the way you do, etc. 

What still seems obvious to me is that a culture at any public- privately owned, public muni, or private club, or resort is that the theme and tone is set by the leader, management, owner, etc.  From the git-go, it seems to me that prosepctive members, or public customers should be informed of what the policy or expectations are. 

For instance, courses are offered the service by our state association, and I imagine elsewhere. to be rated for reasonable time for an average round.  OUrs is 4:10mins.  Signage or communications to members ought to be clear and continuous that there is a standard that the management must adhere to inorder to offer maximum pleasure and usage to 'all' members.  The tone set of encouragement of member or user consideration for the other members or users that involves courteous and efficient play should, IMHO, be a constantly re-inforced theme presented to the end users.  So, shouldn't the fact of being given forewarning via signage, newsletters, a clause in the membership offer document, that this standard to play in 4:10 (or whatever is deemed reasonable and efficient be considered fair at your particular club) be done as an upfront and fair proposition?  And, shouldn't there be forewarning that use of course rangers (player assistants if you must be euphamistic) to make sure the standard is met so all can have a reasonably good time, be a well distributed understanding?  Shouldn't users be forewarned what the procedures should be if players in a group fall behind? 

I think these communications can be done in good taste, and also can be promulgated in such a way that it becomes a source of private club pride, or just common public user understanding that there is a standard, and we stick to it because we all want to have the best opportunity for enjoyable usage without being selfish towards fellow users or members.

So, if pace of play is the primary factor in decisions about the course profitablitly, then figure out if carts and trolleys do or do not slow up the pace.  If the facts don't sustain the argument (which I personally believe is the case on most any walkable course) then make darn sure your pace of play standard is met.  If is is not, management should be at falult as much or more than the users that become lacadazical about their pace.   

[Carl Nichols]

Unless solo carts are never faster than walkers. 

I respectfully disagree. If I were to pick any of my regular playing partners, none of whom ever plays slower than 4 hours, we would absolutely be faster as a twosome in a single cart than as a twosome walking.  And that's without even trying to play faster--if we were trying to play as fast as possible, the cart would be much faster.

That doesn't mean--and I absolutely don't believe--that carts are necessary to speed up play: slow players will play slow whether walking or in carts. But fast players play faster in carts.

[mike_beene]

We have plenty of bad players,including me sometimes,but the expectation is that play is under 4 hours and if it is not people go crazy.On a non summer day half the people walk and half of those are paying the 10 dollars for a trolley. Mandatory carts on a weekend morning or anytime would cost us 100 members me included. For the people I play with yes we love golf but we love the escape and the exercise more and hope to stay healthy another 20 years. The trolley is frankly enabling a lot of us to keep walking and hopefully stay healthy .If that slows us down 10 minutes then sorry.Forcing people into carts is a disservice to golf and the physical and mental health of the people who play it. Leave the destruction of health to the cigarette companies.

[Sean_A]

Unless solo carts are never faster than walkers. 

I respectfully disagree. If I were to pick any of my regular playing partners, none of whom ever plays slower than 4 hours, we would absolutely be faster as a twosome in a single cart than as a twosome walking.  And that's without even trying to play faster--if we were trying to play as fast as possible, the cart would be much faster.

That doesn't mean--and I absolutely don't believe--that carts are necessary to speed up play: slow players will play slow whether walking or in carts. But fast players play faster in carts.

Sure, if you have somewhere to go.  Carts need open holes to play faster than walkers. 

Ciao

[archie_struthers]

 

RJ thanks for your courteous response. As stated I love walking and despite being a little chubbier than I would like , I am blessed to play the senior member guest at Pine Valley next weekend and can't wait to walk with a caddy for three days . What a treat.  

You clearly touch on many issues that are critical to running a club, but in practice some common sense solutions break down.

We walk all winter when it gets a little cooler. By then , we're pretty much down to core golfers who , if someone slows us down , get serious pressure from the rest of us .  We want to play , then enjoy everyone's company at the pub, and pay off our wagers !  Seldom do we take more than 3.5 hours, 4 hours gets you a seat by yourself at the bar !

When we are busy in the summer months, and we get guest play (slower) and some less serious players, pace of play would grind to a halt if we hadn't built a culture of hit and go (ready golf) .  As stated , it would be very confrontational to selectively pick out members who were too slow to walk in season.  

All the clubs in the States are different. We have neighboring high end private clubs that might have only 50 to 75 players a day whose pace of play is an hour slower than our normal 3.5 hours , and our members have become justifiability proud of their ability to move fast and still enjoy the game.  Our biggest sloths are not our seniors but rather the elite juniors, who often emulate their hero's on tour. In that they play for next to nothing, we can deal with them . They are a real good bunch of kids.

I read with interest your point that 4:10 minutes should be an expectation for all, as suggested by the state golf association. It's a slippery slope posting an accepted time of play , as it gives a blessing to that number. I clearly remember a nice member and player holding up the whole shebang one Saturday morning. When he was politely asked to move it out and catch up to the field , he told the ranger , then the pro that he was on a four hour pace , and to let him enjoy his round.  It seemed one of our rangers had gotten the habit of saying we expected a four  hour round.  Oops !   Your golf shop and rangers must rather stress playing in position, not a pre determined time. A four hour round at our club would have many cell phones ( yes , sorry to say ) blowing up the pro shop line.  On holiday weekends we announce to all our group ringleaders that their expectation of our normal pace might be a little off. Despite this , we almost never hit four hours , even on extremely busy days where we anticipate some pace of play issues.

Same with fivesomes.  It was a big cause célèbre for us, as some members just don't see the efficacy of selective use of this tool. We have more than a few groups who regularly play together. They love this because they don't have to find a foursome and can just show up and get a game. This sometimes causes an uneven number and threesomes just don't work for many reasons. So , rather than send the odd man home , you use a five to balance the field. It caused a lot of grief when used inappropriately, whether it be a golf purist complaining or because the five allegedly held up a four that followed. Like walking , some guys just can't play fast enough to keep a five moving along. Ah , but we found an answer! If you have twenty one show up, and need to use a five to balance, the five goes in the front of the group, first off. The  leader (member) knows if the five is slow we have a problem . Thus , he or she puts the right people in the five. If they start to dawdle , their own group  polices them . Problem solved for all but the purists.

Sorry to have gotten a little off point in discussing management issues. But until you field all the questions, and in a perfect world anticipate them in advance , it seems pretty simple to run a club. In practice its quite difficult, with a myriad of decisions , then throw in food and beverage. It certainly is much easier at a private than public, as one time guests just don't buy into your agenda like members do.

As to trolleys, I have grown to appreciate  them . On my one trip to Ireland I marveled at the ability of our hosts to maneuver their buggies, and laughed hysterically the first time I saw one sent down a huge slope at Portrush. My preference remains for a small fleet of simple but elegant trolleys at the club to be available . No Rodney D. buggies for me .

[A.G._Crockett]

Unless solo carts are never faster than walkers. 

I respectfully disagree. If I were to pick any of my regular playing partners, none of whom ever plays slower than 4 hours, we would absolutely be faster as a twosome in a single cart than as a twosome walking.  And that's without even trying to play faster--if we were trying to play as fast as possible, the cart would be much faster.

That doesn't mean--and I absolutely don't believe--that carts are necessary to speed up play: slow players will play slow whether walking or in carts. But fast players play faster in carts.

Carl,
Everything you write is true, and at the same time completely irrelevant.  Of course two people riding are faster than two people walking; that's why my wife and I drive when we go out to dinner instead of walking.  What you are saying is that a Ferrari can go faster than a Civic, and certainly that is true.

But that isn't the issue.  The issue is pace of play, and I have NEVER seen a course, public or private, where walkers are the cause of slow play.  EVER!

Slow play always comes from one of three things; (1) too many players on the course with too little time between groups teeing off, (2)poor playing habits by individual golfers who either don't know how to play quickly or don't care to, or (3) cart path only restrictions.

In the case of (1), walking becomes completely irrelevant; there isn't any place to go.  In the case of (2), this is ALWAYS people that are riding, and in the case of (3) walking often becomes faster.

I don't mean to demonize carts.  But the belief that walking, with or without a trolley, is in any way related to pace of play issues in modern golf is inaccurate at best and deceitful at worst.  It's about money.

[Carl Johnson]

Why doesn't anyone in pro events ever use a pull cart?  One would think caddies would be for it.

WW

You see it at lower levels but I've never seen it in anything bigger than Futures Tour events.

I've been reminded that seasoned professional Alex Cejka pushed his own trolley at our club this year in Monday qualifying for the Wells Fargo Championship (at Quail Hollow) and shot a 66.  Of course, he's a European, so that may not count.

[RJ_Daley]

Archie, your reply 57 this morning is obviously told by one who knows their club and business.  After reading it, I'm not even sure there is any real disagreement on the issue of pace of play.  As you describe it, you don't seem to have an issue at your club because you have a system that as you describe, all the member-players seem educated and support the system and tone 'you set'.  To me, the issue may be down to this part that you stated above:

However the majority of Americans  can't , and if you allow walking its very hard to say RJ and Archie can walk on a busy weekend but Bill and Joe can't because they are too slow. Believe me , even at a privately owned club the management needs to remove controversy and not have to make personal decisions on a daily basis. Most of your staff just can't handle the pressure and you need to keep the members friendly and not in armed camps. This you make decisions that you deem reasonable to make the club a fun , friendly place for all.

Based on my limitted observations, I think the majority of golfers (Americans or Euros, Asians, whoever) can play at the proper or desired pace of play that is appropriate for the design of the golf course, if it is a walkable course.  Newbies, can't - but they are not the majority of golfers.  And, they are the ones that must be targetted for a focused educational or informational pre-round session about how to maintain pace of play.  They generally play with a player that isn't a newbie, and the culture of the club, or the course management should be to inform them of playing aspects from ready golf to how to get on and off greens, where to park carts and all the issues that slow up play.  And most important they should be told that others including a ranger will be there to assist them to keep up.  If they don't like that, they can make their own decision not to play and participate in the sport.  But, explained correctly, they will see it is part of the golf culture to abide by the custom of efficient play.

If I understand AG's point, and it is also my belief, and others have noted as well, slow players are as slow in a cart as walking, if they can walk.  Making a slow player take a cart has never sped them up in my experience either.  They aren't slow getting to their ball after leaving the tee, and they aren't slow getting to the green on next shots.  Yet they still hold up play because they are still never ready to hit, and they putt like they are over the last putt to win the Masters.  They walk and wander around greens looking every angle, plumbob, mark 1 foot putts, after a miss, and never park the cart properly, or instead of exiting the cart in area near where they think their ball is in the rough, they drive in circles in the rough hanging out of the seat looking for their ball instead of get out and look.  I"ve seen single cartballers go at the walking pace driving right next to their playing companion who is walking and socializing with them on the trip out to the playing companions ball, wait with that playing companion as he hits his shot, before the cartballer even approaches his ball.... then go through the whole preshot routine of his own, well after the companion has hit and is on this way to the green.  You know all the maddening stuff.  It all just points to the fact that a slow player is a slow player, manditory cart or not.  It is the culture and process of education that matters, and is the only way to maintain the desired pace of play appropriate for the course being played.  

It sure doesn't seem like there is any real problem at your facility, Archie.  That is a feather in your cap!   So, keep doing it your way, because that is what works for you.    

[archie_struthers]

 

A.G.      I understand demonizing carts...there are some valid points to that discussion.  But how do you get a slow group of walkers to catch up ?

They can't !

How do you tell slow players they can't walk, but those guys can  ?  

Walking is awesome , but some places here in the states it just has to be regulated.


p.s.   mr Daley , I'm quite sure if we ever played golf together we would walk and enjoy it immensely , God willing !  

[Ricardo Ramirez Calvo]

Archie,

You wrote "But how do you get a slow group of walkers to catch up ? They can't !".

That's not true. Of course they can. They just simply have to walk faster. That's what happens in the rest of the world where golf is played walking, when you are asked/warned by a marshal to speed up. You walk faster. Believe me: you can certainly catch up if you move your legs quickly.

Best,

[archie_struthers]

 


In the immortal words of Closeau,  " but of course"!    Lol.   Muy bueno Ricardo !

[Carl Nichols]

Unless solo carts are never faster than walkers.  

I respectfully disagree. If I were to pick any of my regular playing partners, none of whom ever plays slower than 4 hours, we would absolutely be faster as a twosome in a single cart than as a twosome walking.  And that's without even trying to play faster--if we were trying to play as fast as possible, the cart would be much faster.

That doesn't mean--and I absolutely don't believe--that carts are necessary to speed up play: slow players will play slow whether walking or in carts. But fast players play faster in carts.

Carl,
Everything you write is true, and at the same time completely irrelevant.  Of course two people riding are faster than two people walking; that's why my wife and I drive when we go out to dinner instead of walking.  What you are saying is that a Ferrari can go faster than a Civic, and certainly that is true.

But that isn't the issue.  The issue is pace of play, and I have NEVER seen a course, public or private, where walkers are the cause of slow play.  EVER!

Slow play always comes from one of three things; (1) too many players on the course with too little time between groups teeing off, (2)poor playing habits by individual golfers who either don't know how to play quickly or don't care to, or (3) cart path only restrictions.

In the case of (1), walking becomes completely irrelevant; there isn't any place to go.  In the case of (2), this is ALWAYS people that are riding, and in the case of (3) walking often becomes faster.

I don't mean to demonize carts.  But the belief that walking, with or without a trolley, is in any way related to pace of play issues in modern golf is inaccurate at best and deceitful at worst.  It's about money.

John:

I agree with essentially everything you say in this post; indeed, as my post indicated, I wish my club would permit trolleys (and thus more walking).  But I was responding to a blanket statement you made earlier--and that many others on this site have made in the past--that carts are never faster than walking.  I guess you meant that riding doesn't guarantee that a group will play faster than if they're walking, or that riding isn't a cure-all for slow play, and I absolutely agree with those views.  

I do think, because I've heard it here before, that some people actually believe that you can never play faster as a twosome in a cart than a twosome walking because of the efficiency of having to drive to two balls, etc.  That argument is IMHO completely wrong but gets thrown out by the strenuously anti-cart crowd as another point for being against carts.  

[Jason Thurman]

I do think, because I've heard it here before, that some people actually believe that you can never play faster as a twosome in a cart than a twosome walking because of the efficiency of having to drive to two balls, etc.  That argument is IMHO completely wrong but gets thrown out by the strenuously anti-cart crowd as another point for being against carts. 

I've heard it too. Those guys are absolutely crazy and in denial. Playing fast in a cart requires a slightly different skillset than playing fast walking. It requires more foresight and willingness to be inconvenienced. But a twosome in a cart playing fast and using the cart efficiently will always beat a twosome walking playing fast and efficiently, unless a course has really circuitous cart paths or something like that. Still, it’s not a race. Walkers and riders can both easily play in just over 3 hours on the average course if they know what they’re doing, and that’s a pace of play that all of us would probably be happy with.

The benefit of walking isn’t that it speeds up play. It’s that it makes play more enjoyable without slowing it down. My experience, similar to others on this thread, is that walkers are ALMOST never the ones who slow down a course. I suspect the reason is that most players who walk are also stewards of the game. They respect its traditions and etiquette, including pace of play. They’re knowledgeable about how to play and how to do it in a timely fashion. The only people who take longer than 4 hours to play the average course are the ones who are oblivious to the people behind them and have no comprehension of how to get around a course efficiently. I occasionally have seen those guys walking, but they usually ride. They’re generally casual golfers who are here for the beer cart or the socializing as much as for the golf. And there’s nothing wrong with that, but they’re not as focused on or knowledgeable about the game.

Also, am I the only person who thinks GCA has lost its mind when we lament the omnipresence of the golf cart and call it an “eyesore” and “untraditional,” but also think it’s a shame that electric trolleys aren’t more affordable? Look, I’m all for trolleys, as I think they make walking more accessible and ultimately I’d just rather see more people able to walk a course. But let’s not pretend that carts are ugly and trolleys aren’t. Electric trolleys and those ridiculous four-wheeled push carts with ATV tires are far more obnoxious than carts as far as I’m concerned, but maybe that’s just me.

[RJ_Daley]

Yah,,, maybe... 

[Bruce Katona]

I much prefer to walk and a trolley is far better than carrying my bag.  When my wife played we would take a cart, put or bags on and she would rive, while I walked.  Always less than 4 hours and she struggled to break 100.

I grew up using a trolley and would welcome using one if permitted.  At the Valley Club in Sun Valley, the club had the powered trolley's for members use as the course was farily level and the members enjoyed walking.

[Bob_Huntley]

AG,

You wrote

"But that isn't the issue.  The issue is pace of play, and I have NEVER seen a course, public or private, where walkers are the cause of slow play.  EVER!"

You must be kidding.

Bob

[A.G._Crockett]

AG,

You wrote

"But that isn't the issue.  The issue is pace of play, and I have NEVER seen a course, public or private, where walkers are the cause of slow play.  EVER!"

You must be kidding.

Bob

Bob,
I absolutely am NOT kidding.  I will qualify my statement this way:  IF pace of play issues are being created by players that are walking, the walking is extraneous to the problem; there is correlation without causation.

I detailed what are IMO the three reasons for slow play; I'd love to hear others if you can think of any.  Of those three reasons I gave, one is management decision that essentially renders the difference between walking and riding irrelevant, one is specific ONLY to riders, and one is far more likely (IMO) to involve riders than walkers.

Grant me this fact: On a crowded golf course where there is nowhere to go, the pace of play is what it is whether you walk or ride.  Walking, including the trolley question, is irrelevant.

Now assume a less than full golf course in which faster players can benefit from playing through.  In your experience (which is vast) are walkers more likely to let riders play through, or are riders more likely to let walkers play through?  In MY experience, overwhelmingly the answer is that walkers let riders through but the converse is much less often true.

Go to any course with a reputation for slow rounds/pace of play problems, such as resort courses.  Are these problems being caused by walkers?  Hell, most resort courses don't even ALLOW walking!

[Brent Hutto]

OK, for starters let's stipulate that if the course is choked with 8-minute tee time foursomes playing at a 5-hour pace no one person's pace of play matters at all. Not walkers, not riders. So let's look at the situation where there is the possibility of playing quickly.

Slow play is not caused by playing golf slowly. Nor is it caused by walking or riding slowly between shots.

Slow play is caused by slow players doing everything under the damn sun EXCEPT playing golf and moving to the ball.

A fast player in a cart (by himself) will cover most normally laid out courses faster than a fast player walking. Because if all you're doing is hitting the shots then moving directly to the ball the moving is faster in a golf cart.

But give a slow player a cart and he now has one more damn thing to use for wasting time. He can steer his cart in endless circles  through the tall rough"looking" for his ball. He can enjoy a leisurely snack or take his time drinking his fourth beer of the round. He can rummage through his 50-pound cart bag full of shit he doesn't need to play golf. He can drive over to where other players are contemplating their shots.

The slow player who is walking has fewer time-wasting options. Especially given that any aimless wandering, meandering, circling back, etc. has to be done on Shanks Pony and he gets tired by the end of the round anyway.

Golf carts are an amplifier. They make the fastest players faster and the slowest players slower. As such, they simply increase the friction on a busy course where nobody is playing at exactly the pace they expect to. A cart also gives someone a chance to ZOOOOOM ahead of a walker leaving the tee and park 200 yards up the fairway to wait for him, providing ample time to redirect all his frustration with the general suckiness of the day's experience on that DARNED WALKER HE'S BEEN WAITING ON ALL DAY.

[John Cowden]

"Take as long as you need to play your shot, but be ready to play your shot when it's your turn."  I grew up with that mantra, but how often do walkers/carters congregate at the first ball, stand/sit around until the shot is played, then move to the next? 

True, many of us move down the course to our next shot with purpose and planning.  But look around at how few know how to play that way. 

"Visitors time, 4 hours 27 minutes.  Members time, 3 hours 42 minutes.".  Sign in North Berwick starter's shack.

As a walker, I'm always ahead of my playing partners in carts.  I can't beat a single in a cart, but I can at least stay even with a one cart twosome, and definitely have the ready honors when playing against a threesome using two carts.   Trolley or carry, it matters not, although carrying may be a wee bit quicker.

[JC Urbina]

Trolly,

I hope I don't offend any caddies out there but someday my budget will be limited and I hope I can still tug my trolly behind me or maybe by that time I will only be playing with 4 clubs.

[Garland Bayley]

... when I see young dudes, or other fit folks in carts, on easily walkable courses, I don't think golfers, but rather posers.  But, isn't that what "country club" life is all about?  Posing.

 

[Garland Bayley]

...but he was right the walking group finished an hour and thirty minutes behind us, we played in two hours fifty five they were four and a half.  We played a hard golf course from the tips in light rain and they just got slow grinding it out.

I'd gladly bet that people play faster in a cart , its foolish to think otherwise. Now slow people in a cart may be slower than fast walkers, but for the typical American golfer, you are surely misinformed.  If that was true I'd be pushing a lot harder for the purity of the experience. If you walk it's so much more social , and you can appreciate the game more, and the architecture.

IMHO Slowness is a personal attribute. A slow player will be slow in a cart or walking. Any gain in a cart will be marginal at best. Slow players find a way to be just as slow in carts.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Also, am I the only person who thinks GCA has lost its mind when we lament the omnipresence of the golf cart and call it an “eyesore” and “untraditional,” but also think it’s a shame that electric trolleys aren’t more affordable? Look, I’m all for trolleys, as I think they make walking more accessible and ultimately I’d just rather see more people able to walk a course. But let’s not pretend that carts are ugly and trolleys aren’t. Electric trolleys and those ridiculous four-wheeled push carts with ATV tires are far more obnoxious than carts as far as I’m concerned, but maybe that’s just me.

It's just you.

[Garland Bayley]

...
A fast player in a cart (by himself) will cover most normally laid out courses faster than a fast player walking. Because if all you're doing is hitting the shots then moving directly to the ball the moving is faster in a golf cart.
...

Then why is it that when a single in a cart joins me, I always have to wait significantly on green to tee transitions. I hit my drive before he even arrives. There is a difference in golf courses. On an old course, such as mine I am on the tee almost immediately while the cart driver has to make transitions from green to cart on path, cart to the next tee, transition from cart to tee, AND they add time by going to the back to put away a club, and then again to get out a club. The only reason they seem faster is they make the transition from tee to ball a little faster.

Now if the tee is 100 yards from the green like at Jason's place on another first page thread, the cart is making up some time on such cart ball courses.

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