To Trolley or not to Trolley

[Sean_A]

Brian

I agree walking is quicker to get around than using a trolley, assuming one can carry a bag, but the health benefits (tradeoff) can be far from obvious if someone has health issues.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

I wish the PGA tour would have a tournament where the pros have no caddy and push their own trolley. Maybe without  caddie consultation the pace might improve

I would love to see all tournaments requiring that the pros carry their own bag.  I'm sick and tired of caddies, and their presence on the tour makes our game look like it is dominated by a bunch of out of shape/out of mind wimps.

[A.G._Crockett]

I'm playing the weekday points game a little later this morning.  I'll use my trolley today because of a threat of rain; if it does rain, I put the umbrella in an attachment on the handle, put on rain gloves, and no worries.  Rain gear is a lot of weight to carry, and I get far, far wetter getting in and out of a cart for each shot.

Come to think of it, rain may explain at least a bit of the popularity of trolleys in GB...

[Rich Goodale]

I would love to see all tournaments requiring that the pros carry their own bag.  I'm sick and tired of caddies, and their presence on the tour makes our game look like it is dominated by a bunch of out of shape/out of mind wimps.

Agreed. The endless conferences are a joke as well.

Absolutely, Brian.

[Wayne_Kozun]

We have trolleys at my club and they are used quite a bit, although I prefer carrying and 50%+ use riding carts.

What's the policy of taking trolleys over greens?  We don't allow it at my club but I just came back from Cabot Links and they encourage you to take the trolleys over the greens.  They have he wide wheel trolleys but I don't think that really makes a difference as the pressure under my feet is far higher than any trolley.

[archie_struthers]

 


In the season , our club depends on cart revenue to make money.  We try to balance this with people's desire to walk , and allow walking after three o'clock  in season and anytime in the off season.

As to trolleys , my personal preference wold be for the club to provide them , at a nominal fee for those who choose to use them . Otherwise you can get a panoply of carts of all shapes sizes and colors in various states of repair. It also lets the club decide what style is best for wear and tear , and empowers the superintendent to get involved , always a good thing.

[Brent Hutto]

archie,

I have to point out that golfer's attire comes in all shapes, sizes and brands. As do golfer's clubs and golf bags. Is having five different color push carts on your course really more offensive than have five different colors of shirts and slacks?

Personally I'd love it if everywhere I went had a fleet of push/pull carts sitting there ready to go, like MPCC or 'most any course in England or Scotland. And I'm happy to pay a few bucks for the use of one. But surely no reasonable person can find mis-matched push carts an eyesore if for whatever reason the club does not provide standardized ones...

P.S. My response to the "we need the money" argument is the same as always. Fine, tell me how much money you need and I'll either gladly pay my part or I'll play elsewhere. But telling me I can't walk the course does not increase my willingness to pay, quite the opposite in fact.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Issues such as wear and tear are a red herring IMO. I've never seen it as a problem. Is suspect that those that view it as an issue are really just looking for excuses to make money by other means. I'd say 90% of the players at my club use trolleys and we have between 150 and 200 rounds a day on our course. The objection to trolleys sounds a bit Irish to me.

I also don't see how carrying you clubs is healthier than pulling a trolly. All that bending over and loading your back cannot be more beneficial to your health, can it?

I'll concede that carrying can be quicker (taking a direct route through hilly ground, across a green etc. ) in some ways, but slower in other ways (it's not as easy to walk quickly carrying, as it is to pull/push quickly, opening zips on that back side of the bag, etc.). I'd say it evens out over a round.

Most senior players on this side of the pond use electric trolleys; they don't seem to be much of a bother.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Merion West has a fleet of yellow Sun Mountain 3 wheel push trolleys available for a nominal rental.

When I was on the Board of my former club I suggested the use of trolleys to promote walking for those, like myself, who did not like to carry. At that time, the club's walking policy was to allow walkers who carried their own bag after 2 pm.  There was no love for trolleys as they would give  the club a " muni look."

In the Philly area, Sunnybrook and Cricket Militia Hill have trolleys available. Blue Heron Pines, a public course near Atlantic City, had electric trolleys available when the course opened. I don't know if the new ownership still has them available.

[RJ_Daley]

I also agree with Brent Hutto on his points.  The notion that multi colored or style push trolleys are not uniform looking, and of course some are 3 wheel and some 4 wheelers.  Oh, the horror of non-uniformity!   

And the comment that it gives a club that "muni" look?  No wonder many people of average means and lifestyle turn away from golf when such arrogant and elitist comments like that are part of the 'club culture' and many people that haven't experienced golf have THAT as their impression of what the game is about.  It is like these clubs are "Stepford Village" mentality, where all the golf is played in airconditioned carts, and the paths are paved with flowerbeds, and all the women playing on ladies day are dressed the same and have platinum-blue permned hair.  How anyone would want to participate in a see of conformity and pretense like that is totally beyond me.

[archie_struthers]

   

To Brent and R.J.  I don't think Im a snob or unreasonable. I've spent most of my life waiting on customers or carrying their golf bags. When it comes to understanding the intricacies of managing a golf business, you need to learn from past mistakes. We have a great pace of  play at our club , unusual for the states . Our slow groups  are 3:45,  most of our members like this and want to keep moving.

Some of us can walk and play in three hours , most can't . That's a fact of life. We have some guys who like to walk that just can't figure out where to leave their bag , etc etc etc. As they age, they  are getting  slower. It's a sad but true fact. Rather than single them out as slow and push them relentlessly , we adopted the mandatory cart rule . Yes it makes us revenue, but in fact it keeps play moving. Slow play is a bigger problem than not walking, believe me .

I love to walk, my cart mate rarely sees me in the seat in the course of a round.  I grab two or three clubs  and skedaddle 80% of the time.  I will move the cart for him if needed or if he wants to walk a hole . I respect that some people will not tolerate the non-walking policy , but it is a small, small percentage of our players. We have lots of good games and competition , and this seems to draw them to our club .

As to uniformity of carts / trolleys. We are fairly liberal as to dress , but don't allow cargo shorts or tank tops , jeans etc etc. The majority of our membership agrees with this. As to trolleys, have you seen some of the monstrosities with beer holders, coolers etc etc built in to the cart. They look like hell, think Rodney Dangerfield's golf bag , and
cause other issues relative to food and alcohol consumption. No problems with a PB and J or power bar in the bag , but I'm anti food truck on the golf course. So, despite being quite a contrarian , these are my reasons . The club should purchase some basic , simple trolleys for their members to use,plain and simple.


p.s.    were either of you ever a bag guy and tried to help get some of these super carts out of a trunk.....oh my !

[Bill_McBride]

Archie, I'm having a hard time reconciling your posts 32 and 37. 

In 32 you freely admit the mandatory cart rule is revenue-driven.

In 37 it's down to pace of play. 

What's up with that?

[archie_struthers]

 

It's fairly simple.  You need to make the most people happy to make the most revenue. Happy members are good members most of the time . Pace of play is a huge issue in today's golf world, as time is a precious commodity for many of our customers.  Five hour rounds destroy your business . Less people get on the course and around , more people choose not to play because it kills the whole day , and so on and so on.  We would all like to be altruistic and not defer to the revenue, but for more and more clubs its not an option.

Motorized carts are faster , it's quite simple. Here in America everyone posts a score , talks about it , cry's  about it. We just don't play match play and pick up , it's all about the total . Handicaps dictate many of our tournaments and how to play them , and just how many will participate.  We have a gross game on Monday that draws a nice crowd at 3:00 , most of the good players in the area play. When we let them walk , they were so much slower . Same with our members . If they don't know how to play fast you can't make them go, look at the tour , it's pitiful how slow they are.

So pace of play is a revenue enhancer , a big one ,. Carts increase the pace of play , often dramatically. So I can take both positions as an operator. , Although  I personally prefer to walk most people can't keep up , particularly with an aging demographic. So , you do your best to allow as much walking as you can,and balance the rest.

[A.G._Crockett]

Archie,
Unless you are talking about either a near-empty golf course or a course with excessive green-to-tee walks, carts do NOT increase pace of play, and NEVER dramatically.  Mandatory riding policies, whether all the time or on weekend mornings, are always and only about revenue.

Many, many clubs have a no walking policy on weekend mornings and present it as a pace of play issue.  The irony of this, of course, is that those are times the course is crowded and walking matters the least; even a single in a cart with a 90 degree rule has nowhere to go!

I'd bet the ranch that your club is like every other that I've ever belonged to; the slow golfers are in carts.  Always...

Look, I get revenue.  I pay a $10 trail fee for walking (before noon during Daylight Savings) in the Sat. am points game at my club, and I pay it without complaint because the management is honest and realistic and has told the membership that we need the revenue.  But don't shine me with stuff about pace of play, especially when the course is crowded anyway.

[Carl Johnson]

I also agree with Brent Hutto on his points.  The notion that multi colored or style push trolleys are not uniform looking, and of course some are 3 wheel and some 4 wheelers.  Oh, the horror of non-uniformity!   

And the comment that it gives a club that "muni" look?  No wonder many people of average means and lifestyle turn away from golf when such arrogant and elitist comments like that are part of the 'club culture' and many people that haven't experienced golf have THAT as their impression of what the game is about. . . .

Actually, IMHO trolleys do not give the club a "muni" look.  Rather, they give it a "golf club" look. There are older players, and I may be one one day, for whom motorized carts are necessary.  (I concede carts are also necessary for unwalkable courses.)  However, when I see young dudes, or other fit folks in carts, on easily walkable courses, I don't think golfers, but rather posers.  But, isn't that what "country club" life is all about?  Posing.

[Brent Hutto]

Carl,

There are plenty of people around here in the 20's and 30's for whom golf is as much "about" riding in a cart as hitting the shots. I think a lot of them were riding in a cart beside their daddy before they were big enough to swing a golf club and they've never played any other way.

Heck, we don't live with 5 miles of a golf course yet our neighborhood is full of families who own golf carts and let their elementary-age kids drive them up and down the streets and around the park at the end of the block. If those kids get older and take up golf, what are the odds they buy a stand bag and hoof it? About zero.

[Carl Nichols]

I don't know what prevails in Yankee territory. 

Not sure whether DC counts as Yankee territory , but at the private clubs I'm familiar with around here, the position seems to be that they are either banned (my club), financially discouraged by some sort of fee, or at a minimum socially discouraged.  My club--a full-service country club--gets a lot of things right, like pace-of-play, but the trolley ban and the weekend trail fee aren't things it gets right.

Having said that, non-motorized trolleys aren't great at courses like my home course, which is pretty hilly with rough that can get thick.  It's a lot easier to push a cart around a firm links course (or a course like Desert Forest) than try to push one uphill through 5" rough.

[Carl Johnson]

Carl,

There are plenty of people around here in the 20's and 30's for whom golf is as much "about" riding in a cart as hitting the shots. I think a lot of them were riding in a cart beside their daddy before they were big enough to swing a golf club and they've never played any other way.

Great point. Agreed 100%.

[archie_struthers]

 ;Dn

A..G ....great initials same as my dad Archibald G.  , so we can respect  and disagree.  Perhaps you and I can walk fast enough to keep up , but what do you do about the member who can't move fast and wants to walk.  They absolutely exist and it is not a red herring .  Just yesterday my co-commissioner in our Monday night game begged me to make carts mandatory as the guys who have been walking are slowing down the whole deal. It's against my religion to want to ban walking but he was right the walking group finished an hour and thirty minutes behind us, we played in two hours fifty five they were four and a half.  We played a hard golf course from the tips in light rain and they just got slow grinding it out.

I'd gladly bet that people play faster in a cart , its foolish to think otherwise. Now slow people in a cart may be slower than fast walkers, but for the typical American golfer, you are surely misinformed.  If that was true I'd be pushing a lot harder for the purity of the experience. If you walk it's so much more social , and you can appreciate the game more, and the architecture.

[Tim Martin]

I can only imagine that Archie has his finger on the pulse of every issue that makes Greate Bay such a wonderful club. Additionally there are not many guys who have the breadth of experience he does whether from the perspective of a caddie, player, architect, and club owner. Archie gets it and I'm sure that the decisions that were made pursuant to cart use not only serve as a revenue enhancer but to the greater good of the membership at Greate Bay.

[mike_beene]

Some people play slow on a cart and I bet those people also play slow with a trolley or walking.Maybe people can play faster in a cart.It seems like they don't and even if half did you have a traffic jam.

[Sean_A]

If you are telling me carts are necessary for speed of play I call foul.  If guys can't walk around the course in four hours it is either a walking nightmare of a cart course (a problem in and of itself) or guys are slow players.  On a decently designed course for walkers there should be no need for carts to speed up play.  I think its easier and more profitable to jump on carts for revenue and claim its for speed of play reasons than it is to make golfers play faster.  When I hear of how long it takes to play in the States and how many people ride - I get visions of the M25.   

Ciao

[RJ_Daley]

Just as an example, today I played with two other regular golf mates.  One is 72 years old, and has both a 3 wheel sun mountain, and an electric.  He used his electric today.  The other guy is 81 years old, "and always carries his bag" ( and not a hoofers bag like out GCA.com one, but an intermediate carry bag room for all clubs and plenty of storage).  I also used my three wheel sun mountain.  

So..l we tee off with three open holes (not busy at all today) behind a foursome playing a men's club two-man teams match.  That gorup had three with push carts and a single in a golf cart.  We never caught them but never widened the gap either.  But, another hole was open behind us and an apparent Father and Son (age appeared about 15-16) were in one cart.  They were up on us by 9th hole, but never waited on us.  Long walk between 10-11, so after we had two stray balls in rough of 11 to look for, we waved them on through.  We then either were always in place or twice waited on them at holes.  The kid was hitting the ball wild but long and the dad appeared a fair player.  So, just two guys in one cart couldn't outpace three old guys walking, never loosing any time in a round that took us about 3:45-50 and we were at total leisurly pace.  So I say poppycock that carts are faster than walkers.  

[John McCarthy]

Unless solo carts are never faster than walkers. 

At my course we got a sixty-ish below the knee amputee who carries his bag.  He shames me. 

[Ken Moum]

Gosh, if thats the case why haven't Cleacgear or Sun Mountain come out with a competing model?  There are several models about in the UK.  I see more PowaKaddies than anything else I they don't strike me as of particularly high quality.  I think a basic Powakaddy runs about £300-400.  you won't find a decent one for much less.  I can't believe a well established company can't turn a profit on a $400-500 trolley in the American market.

Ciao 

It's a mystery to me, as well. There are a few off-brand ones show up in the $600-$800 price range but they don't look Powakaddy or even "Hillbilly" quality to me. I've rented the Powakaddies at Deal, Brora, maybe a couple other places. If someone would sell one for even $800 over here I'd be tempted. At $500-$600 it would own the low end of the market, totally.

The trick is savvy shopping.  Last year I bought a lightly-used Robokaddy on eBay for $500 with $8 shipping. The owner used it one year and hurt his back.  He paid $1695 for it.

A friend of mine bought a solid Kangaroo Caddy w/ remote setup, new price $2500, for $200 bucks out of the local want ads.

Two weeks ago I bought a vintage Powakaddy classic w/o a battery or charger for $25 from a ninety y/o guy who had to quit golf due to a neck injury.

I stuck my battery in it and have used it for a half:dozen rounds. It runs like a champ, in fact its better than at least a couple of the electric trolleys I rented in Scotland in 2006.

As recently as last year, golfsellersdirect.com was closing out their 2011 Motocaddy line for $350 plus shipping.


The Clubrunner, American made IIRC, only costs about $600 full-priced.  My wife and I both used them for 10 years or so.  I currently have a Bag Boy Navigator, which I love,  but wouldn't consider paying the $1700 to $2000 they bring new.