Tom Fazio's best

[Ted Sturges]

I recently picked up the 2013 Golf Digest issue that listed their top 100 courses in the US and noted that Tom Fazio had 13! of his courses ranked on this list.

Those ranked were:

Alotian Club   15
Wade Hampton   22
Gozzer Ranch      27
Shadow Creek      29
Victoria National     47
Dallas National      60
Estancia     61
Flint Hills      72
The Preserve      79
The Quarry at La Quinta      88
Diamond Creek       89
Hudson National      90
Mountaintop     92

Of these, I have only played Victoria National.

For those who have played more of these, which 3 would you rank as Tom Fazio's best?  And...are there other courses of his you like which did not make the GD list?  If so, please include those in your top 3 ranking of his best work.

TS

[Sam Morrow]

I'd throw Fallen Oak on there, it's a very solid course. Dallas National is very good also. Flint Hills did nothing for me, I thought I was in an arboretum, not a golf course. I think Carlton Woods is better than it. 

[Jim Franklin]

I have played all of them but two and Victoria National is my favorite followed by Gozzer Ranch and The Alotian.

[Sam Morrow]

Web.com is at Victoria this weekend, isn't it?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sam.

With you on Flint Hills.  Site just isn't good enough compared to some other Faz projects to warrant a top 72 ranking.

Have only played or seen the courses below including Wade Hampton, Shadow Creek, Dallas National, Flint Hill, Quarry at La Quinta.  All plus what I have seen in pix of HudNat seem worthy of high rankings, including the buzz over SC at the beginning and falling to a more reasonable ranking.

I think World Woods would get added to that list somewhere near the top.

[ward peyronnin]

On the Golf Channel basically 6-8 each night starting Thursday of course

[Joel_Stewart]

This has been discussed numerous times.  If you type in Fazio in the search bar there are over 30 pages of topics.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,3209.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,22449.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,17156.0.html

[Andy Troeger]

I've played all on that list except The Preserve and Diamond Creek.

Victoria National, Gozzer Ranch, and Wade Hampton are my top three, by a reasonably significant margin. Second tier would be Shadow Creek, Shooting Star (best of those not listed), and The Alotian. All of those would be top 100 level in my book. Dallas National too.

Flint Hills and The Quarry would fall a bit farther down than the rest of those listed. The aesthetics are always there with Fazio, but the interest of the holes and the design aren't there as much as the others. Courses like WW Pine Barrens and Forest Creek North are higher on my list than some of the ones present.

[Nigel Islam]

Web.com is at Victoria this weekend, isn't it?

That it is. I was out there this morning before going into work. John Daly had some snazzy red pants with bowling pins on them. Victoria really does have some very good greens. I think the course has softened some since I first played it in 2001 too. It is the only really highly thought of Fazio I have played, but it has to be one of his better ones I would think.

[Mark McKeever]

Where is Butler National?

MM

[Matthew Sander]

Where is Butler National?

MM

Listed as a George Fazio I believe...

[Matthew Sander]

Where is Butler National?

MM

Listed as a George Fazio I believe...

Mark,

I just looked at the GD ranking and they list both George and Tom. Ted will have to chime in regarding whether he overlooked BN or left it off due to George F. being responsible for the original routing. Regardless it is currently at number 50, which puts it between Victoria National and Dallas National on the list. Three "Nationals" in a row...

[David Harshbarger]

Having only played World Woods Pine Barrens, not in the list but widely referenced, my take is that the Fazio course was artificial to the point of being contrived.  The contrivance was excellent golf.  The fall away green on 10. 14 and 15.  Great holes, yes, but the course seemed hollow, soulless. 

I compare and contrast to CommonGrounds, which had golden age features artificially created, but plays soulfully. I think one might rate WW-PB ahead of CG, as the features are bolder and more dramatic.  But CG is the course I would play 9-1.

Stepping back, compared to GA courses and minimalist courses, as well crafted as the Fazio courses are, are even the best, like Shadow Creek, structurally incapable of being the "best" because of the contrivance?   Or alternately, what is it about me as a "rater" that would lead to my divergent opinion in favor of less contrivance, even as some GA courses are contrived in obvious ways, but still seem soulful?

[Andy Troeger]

David,

If you think WWPB is contrived, by all means do not go see Shadow Creek! I haven't been to WWPB in quite awhile, but I remember it as being one of Fazio's more natural designs!

I think Victoria National is my favorite Fazio in part because the features there, while not "natural," were not really created for golf but instead the previous use of the property which was then fit to golf. The holes are also significantly more strategic than some of his other work. Gozzer Ranch and Wade Hampton derive some of their soul from lovely settings, but the courses are more than good enough to add that charm. I do wonder if Shadow Creek is 4th for me because it lacks some of that charm. It technically is excellent with a variety of interesting, challenging, and strategic holes. However, I do feel that the created setting, as cool as it might be, still falls behind the best nature has to offer.

I played CommonGround a few days ago and enjoyed it. I like WWPB quite a bit more than you do I think, so I favor it in that comparison. However, I think CG holds its own against a few other courses of Fazio's that were built with huge budgets and are pretty highly regarded.

[Tom_Doak]

I recently picked up the 2013 Golf Digest issue that listed their top 100 courses in the US and noted that Tom Fazio had 13! of his courses ranked on this list.

Those ranked were:

Alotian Club   15
Wade Hampton   22
Gozzer Ranch      27
Shadow Creek      29
Victoria National     47
Dallas National      60
Estancia     61
Flint Hills      72
The Preserve      79
The Quarry at La Quinta      88
Diamond Creek       89
Hudson National      90
Mountaintop     92

I have only seen eight of those courses myself.  I guess that gives me a lot more to see before I finish The Confidential Guide ...

Actually, though, of the ones I have seen, I thought several of them were highly overrated.  I would put World Woods Pine Barrens well ahead of The Preserve or Hudson National or Dallas National.  I honestly can't believe that Hudson National is in a top-100 list.

[Sean Leary]

I recently picked up the 2013 Golf Digest issue that listed their top 100 courses in the US and noted that Tom Fazio had 13! of his courses ranked on this list.

Those ranked were:

Alotian Club   15
Wade Hampton   22
Gozzer Ranch      27
Shadow Creek      29
Victoria National     47
Dallas National      60
Estancia     61
Flint Hills      72
The Preserve      79
The Quarry at La Quinta      88
Diamond Creek       89
Hudson National      90
Mountaintop     92

I have only seen eight of those courses myself.  I guess that gives me a lot more to see before I finish The Confidential Guide ...

Actually, though, of the ones I have seen, I thought several of them were highly overrated.  I would put World Woods Pine Barrens well ahead of The Preserve or Hudson National or Dallas National.  I honestly can't believe that Hudson National is in a top-100 list.

I would be fascinated to see how you rate Fazio courses that you see now. He clearly doesn't build the type of courses that you most appreciate. i I am curious how that sort of a bias (don't mean bias in a bad way here as we all have biases) affects what you see.

[Andy Troeger]

The original listing misses Eagle Point, at #67.

[John Blain]

About six years ago I played Hudson National and Sleepy Hollow on the same day. For those of you not familiar, the two clubs are in very close proximity.

While I enjoyed Hudson National, Sleepy Hollow blew me away and yet they are a club that has gotten virtually no respect from the raters.

The whole rating thing is nuts and the fact that a super could lose his or her job because of the ratings game just adds to the madness.

I remember several years ago Seminole G.C. fell out of the GD Top 10 and the club's president at the time (Barry Van Gerbig) was none too happy about it. He said in a story in GD that raters were no longer welcome and that "for most of those guys (raters) their idea of a good time is a six pack and a weekend in Myrtle Beach"

-John

[David Harshbarger]

Andy,

Something I think about a lot is just why a course lie WWPB would seem contrived when courses like CG, also contrived, and maybe more contrived than WWPB for all I know, would come off as less so.  Maybe it's golf's version of the uncanny valley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley, and Fazio has fallen in!  Well, at least to my eye.

Given my small sample size seeing more Fazio is on my list.

Dave

[Joel_Stewart]

It's all subjective.  I've played most of those courses and in my mind two of Fazio better courses are Galloway National and Martis Camp and they are not even listed.   I'm told Aldarra in Seattle is pretty good as well.

The Preserve, Dallas National, and Estancia should be removed for any possible consideration.

[Sean Leary]

It's all subjective.  I've played most of those courses and in my mind two of Fazio better courses are Galloway National and Martis Camp and they are not even listed.   I'm told Aldarra in Seattle is pretty good as well.

The Preserve, Dallas National, and Estancia should be removed for any possible consideration.

Aldarra is good but likely not in Fazios top 10.

[John Kirk]

I agree that Martis Camp is good.

I did not particularly like The Preserve.

I like the Fazio course at Pronghorn, which has not been mentioned.

The Quarry at La Quinta is a beautiful place, but seems pretty simple to play in my two experiences there.  Lots of two putt pars.  I'll probably get my ass kicked the next time I play there. 

[Mike Wagner]

It's all subjective.  I've played most of those courses and in my mind two of Fazio better courses are Galloway National and Martis Camp and they are not even listed.   I'm told Aldarra in Seattle is pretty good as well.

The Preserve, Dallas National, and Estancia should be removed for any possible consideration.

I think Estancia is great - actual width in the desert.  It's #2 for me to Shadow.

[Tim Leahy]

I really liked the 36 holes at Pelican Hill and am surprised those courses don't get more attention.

[JimB]

I did not particularly like The Preserve.


The Quarry at La Quinta is a beautiful place, but seems pretty simple to play in my two experiences there.  Lots of two putt pars.  I'll probably get my ass kicked the next time I play there. 

Agree with everything except I doubt you'll get your ass kicked.

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