[Patrick_Mucci]

Intriguing features within a putting surface.

Recently I was playing golf with some friends and one of them had to putt over the center of a mound/spine.

He didn't hit the putt quite hard enough and it started peeling to his left.
The mound/spine redirected it a good ten feet from the hole.

This mound/spine required the golfer to read the line, but more importantly, to determine the proper pace, since a miscue would result in the mound/spine producing exponentially worse results.

This green typically putts at 10 or more.

So why aren't more mounds/spines an integral element in more putting surfaces ?

Is it because they might be deemed "unfair" by a less strong willed golfer ?

[Greg Chambers]

Before I even read your last line, my thought was "unfair".  So I would agree that the reason they're not utilized more is because they'd be deemed "unfair".

Rustic Canyon does a great job of using spines and mounds to determine strategy.

[Bill_McBride]

Are you talking center spines back to front?   We have two at Pensacola, #9 and #11.  Two putts are tricky over the ridge/spine, and the spine has the effect of making each half of the green a much smaller target requiring a more accurate approach.  

The most diabolical I've seen, while not being too obvious, is the front to back spine at #13 at Cypress Point.  I let my guard down last time there, semi-ignored my caddy, and was 10' right on a 30' birdie putt straight uphill.  

The mound in the front half of #9 at Friars Head does the same thing. 

So agreed, segmented greens divided by spines or mounds are a great way to liven up a course. 

[Joey Chase]

One of my favorite holes at Crumpin Fox in MA is the 11th.  It is a par 3 anywhere from 130 to 170 yards.  It has a pronounced mound that dissects the green.  If you are not on the same side of the green as the flag, you will almost certainly have to deal with the mound. 

I am right there with you Patrick in thinking this feature should be more used.  It is a fun challenge to navigate.

At my current club, Domaine Imperial, we have a par 5 that has an interesting, yet subtle mound that is at the front of the green.  If you lay up short of the green, depending on the pin position, it can really affect how you play your next shot. 

Another place I remember seeing this a lot was at Quaker Ridge coming down the closing stretch.  There are some fantastic greens, I want to say it is the 14th that sticks in my mind as having a strong ridge/mound that cuts the green in half as well.

[RJ_Daley]

Isn't the 18th green of Oakland Hillls CC noted for its bifurcating spine and requires the approach to be on the correct side of the spine running front to back, splitting the green left to right?

[Tom_Doak]

RJ, I thought you were going to bring up Blue Mound.  Those greens have some of the most aggressive spines and ridges in them that I have ever seen, and they are the making of the course.

[JimB]

I really enjoy them and have thought that they play a big role in an interesting design feature where the hole location is more easily accessed from the same side of the fairway rather than the opposite side. This feature was pointed out to me recently on the 17th at Stone Eagle. Seemed to me that the vertical ridge/spine is what set this up.

[RJ_Daley]

It seems that Mike Strantz was one to segment his greens in tiers and do so with some of the ridges running as spines along the line of play, front to back.  It seems that the terminology of spines and ridges becomes blurred with tiers and troughs.  Lawsonia has distinct segmented greens.  Some, I think rightly could be called spines, others tiers, and others shelves.  As TD mentions Blue Mound, I am not 'that' familiar with the course only playing there twice.  My memory is more of tiers, like the 2nd double plateau 2nd, which is a marvelous green, but my memory seems to recall the segments in a three tier array with troughs more so than spines. 

I think the MacRaynor genre may have been the most frequent in using these segmenting features, but I seem to also remember that RTJSr was enamoured with segmented and tiered greens that may have by happenstance of construction, used spines as well as slopes from one tier to another.

Now that I think of it, maybe the most pronounced and obvious spine I"ve seen is the 10th at Angels Crossing where Mathews and Big Jim Thompson devised a green segmented into what they call a TV dinner plate, where there is spines segmenting three distinct areas, called the peas, mashed potatoes and Salsbury steak sections! Very cool green!!! 

[Thomas Dai]

Spines running through greens are really nice features. They are also nice fairway features.

Just a couple of UK examples -

7th green at Burnham and Berrow - flattish long par-4 made by the lovely spine that runs down the left side of the green as you play it. A very nice subtle feature but without care pretty easy to 3 putt.

8th and 9th fairways at Golspie. With the slightly dogleg right-to-left tee shot on the 8th it's a question of how much can you bite off. Can you carry the left end of the spine or will you fall short of the spine into the heather? On the 9th the heather covered spine runs down the left side and then gently angles across the fairway a little way past half way to the green. Fabulous hole the 9th.

All the best.

[Charlie_Bell]

At my home course, Hotchkiss, Raynor used distinct arrays of ridges, segments and plateaux on 6 of the 9 holes.  Most distinctive is the 3rd hole, an Alps with a nearly circular green.  The green contains two spines perpendicular to the line of play, one running from 8 o'clock to 4 o'clock and the other from 11 o'clock to 2 o'clock.  Even a short putt across one of them makes for a challenging 2-putt.

On the 2nd green, two ridges run diagonal to the line of play, offset by only about 2 paces.  One runs from 5 o'clock to 11 o'clock and disappears into the green just past the middle.  The other runs from 11 o'clock back to 5 o'clock, also disappearing just past the middle.  

George Bahto calls the 6th green one of Raynor's best, and it features ridges like the three segment TV-dinner setup described above.  The 8th green is also circular, with one quarter-sector raised 4-5 feet above the rest...

This is too much information, needing pictures or sketches, but the point is that the dramatic, even gimmicky, green features multiply the variety created by different pin placements.  They also make approaches, pitches, chips, and putts of any length more fun and challenging.  

[Mike Hendren]

Totally agree Patrick.  Even an otherwise pedestrian green can be turned into an architectural marvel with the introduction of one simple mound - a slightly pimple if you will.  If so, there is no excuse to build a uninteresting green.

At Forsgate and Knoll West, Charles BAnks utilized micro spines to great effect.  They are generally modest and almost appear like a mole just visited the green.  Of particularly interest are the almost imperceptible deflection spines on the front section of Forsgate's Biarritz. 

Fun and challenging.

Bogey

[George_Bahto]

Banks used spines much more than did Raynor.

At the Knoll we have some excellent examples.

To me, aside from really fun putting situations, Banks  used larger spines as green segmentation features, compounding approach shots.    .......     In essence making two and three smaller target-greens on his large greens. The shortish par-5 fifth, a good example. The Redan 3rd has a great spine, but the two long off-set spines on Road-hole #1 are the best.

It's unfortunate, the Knoll being a muni, they will not get the greens up to speed. Years ago I got them to cut the Knoll's green at 10.5 / 11 or so for a while. They were diabolical at those speeds.

They lost a couple of greens a while back and since then they are even slower ( but still fun greens).      I took stimp readings  a couple years ago and I doubt they seldom get over 8.5. Occasionally, they cut, then roll them, for weekend play..

A waste of fun greens.

[John Percival]

RJ, 18 at OH does have a serious mound bisecting it with some harsh back to front tilt feathering off both sides so it is VERY difficult to navigate when on the incorrect side.
Don't forget the feature can be used fronting greens (#4 at TOC). As far as a challenging feature, it is probably the most 'democratic' for all play levels and the most 'economical' to implement.
On the minus side, you could expect some extra time at each green that carries the feature.

[David Schofield]

I would have generally agreed with Mr. Mucci's premise, until I played a "signature course" near my home that overused internal spines. Many of the greens are broken into four quadrants by spines that bisect the greens front/back and left/right.

[Bill Brightly]

I love spines, but they are really hard to photograph! Here is the best Charles Banks Redan that I have played: my home course, Hackensack. (I know we need to fix the Redan bunker...) As Geaorge Bahto indicates, getting the greenspeed up a bit is the key to really "bringing the spine to life." Putts from the wrong side are hard, but so much fun.



The spine runs parallel with the bunker, creating a very cool and subtle front and back sections. Using the high, right, kickmound to reach the rear section is not too difficult. But hitting the front section, just over the bunker, is extremely challenging.

In this photo the pin is deep in the upper "tier." If the pin is on the lower "tier" you can actually use the spine as a mini kickmound to have the ball feed down to the hole.



This Joe Bausch photo shows a really tough pin, but it is hard to see the spine:

[Jason Walker]

Mounds and spines are the two words I use to best describe the greens at Tavistock CC.  Jim Nagle and Joe Bausch can offer historical context on the greens from Findlay and Frank James (construction guy).  As to playability, the mounds and spines do a fantastic job of dictating play from the approach on.  A long north/south putt along the spine is no fun, and even with experience it's difficult to tell which way a putt will go as it travels the spine.   Missing a green with the mounds on the exterior of the green and a spine on the interior makes for a difficult, and often times creative, pitch to the flag.  I've often heard the 'unfair' word come out when a player has short-sided himself, or he misplays an approach putt and it goes opposite of the intended line, breaking "up the hill" along the spine.

These two features, in my opinion, are the primary defense at our golf course.  The best examples are the 8th, 11th, and 12th greens, pictured below, with 12 being my favorite green on the golf course.  The 8th is a very interesting green with a horizontal ridge/spine bisected by a north/south spine that in effect creates four mini-greens.  A putt from one quadrant to the other is quite difficult. 

There's actually some discussion going on now about peeling back the rough near the exterior mounds on 12 and adding a fairway cut to add another dimension to play from off the green.

Pictures are from Joe Bausch's photo tour (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52940.0.html

Number 8



Number 11



Number 12



Number 12

[Brent Hutto]

You know you have an interesting green when you're no worse off missing 10 yards to the right and being short-sided in the rough than missing 10 yards left and having a 50-foot putt over a spine or ridge.

One of the Par 5's on my clubs "3rd nine" is like that. The green is 35 yards wide but only 15 yards deep and has a ridge running from front to back. Even if the hole is cut almost to the edge of the putting surface on the right side it doesn't take much of a bailout left to hit that ridge and there's a 50/50 chance you'll be deflected far to the left. The long lag putt back over the ridge will have several feet of left-to-right break and is effectively impossible to stop at the hole.

By contrast if you're 10 yards into the right rough and pin high the ridge serves as a backstop for your chip. Unless you draw a terrible lie it's not a hard up and down.

Without that ridge you'd just aim at the middle of the green (for those going for it in two) and live with a 30-40 foot putt. Boring strategy.

[Wade Whitehead]

Pat:

Please let me know when you would like to visit Ballyhack.

WW

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wade,

My schedule is a little crazy until August.

What I find intriguing about spines/mounds is when you have to putt over them when you're putting from other than a 90 degree angle.

The need for pace and line is at it's most critical when approaching from an odd angle

[Carl Johnson]

My recollection is that Walter Hatch, who worked with Donald Ross, is credited with "Ross" green designs that feature spines coming in toward the center of the green from the corners, sides or backs.  The spines don't cross the entire green, but rather fade out somewhere toward the middle of the greens.  When my club's course (Ross 1929) was rebuilt about five years ago by Kris Spence, Kris successfully brought the spines back.  The tapering aspect makes reading tricky.

I'd like Brad Klein's take on this.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Carl,

A number of Mountain Ridge's greens have those spines.

But, I was thinking more along the line of a spine that's more centered in the green.

One that almost has to be traversed, rather than one that tends to section off a green.

The "Thumb Print" or "Horseshoe" was one type of spine, but the inspiration for this thread came from the spine in the 12th green at NGLA.

The beauty of that spine is how it has a dramatic impact on approaches, recoveries and putts.

When the hole is cut behind the spine, putting up over that spine is very difficult, even if  you're coming at it at 90 degrees.
A fellow I was playing with didn't hit his first putt quite hard enough, and the ball peeled off sharply to the left, leaving him a 12 footer.

I had a nice 90 degree approach putt that almost went in.

His putt was exponentially more difficult than mine because he had to gauge how to "run the ridge"

[Bill Vogeney]

Would you consider some of the greens at Prairie Dunes to have some great spines?  I am thinking of #1 on the back half of the green, separating the back right from the back left, and approach shot on the wrong side can wind up 30 feet away. Number 8 is another great spine, again on back half of the green. #12 more subtle, and 16.

[Josh Tarble]

My recollection is that Walter Hatch, who worked with Donald Ross, is credited with "Ross" green designs that feature spines coming in toward the center of the green from the corners, sides or backs.  The spines don't cross the entire green, but rather fade out somewhere toward the middle of the greens.  When my club's course (Ross 1929) was rebuilt about five years ago by Kris Spence, Kris successfully brought the spines back.  The tapering aspect makes reading tricky.

I'd like Brad Klein's take on this.

Carl,
This is really interesting...I'd be curious to know the time period and locations Hatch was the key shaper.  At our club, built in '22, we have several spines, humps and reverse spines (thumbprints?) that all taper off towards the middle of the green.  I have heard that it's thought an expert shaping crew did the work for Ross but that's about it.

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