US Open Venues

[Ted Sturges]

Lots of interesting debate here this week about the USGA and their (lack of) efforts to control the golf ball and equipment.  I think we can all agree that if nothing is done to change this, then we can expect even more "advancements" in technology (both golf clubs and golf ball) in the future.  Pete Dye built his new course in French Lick to stretch out to 8000 yards in an effort to keep pace with technology.

On another thread, people were talking about where the US Open could and should be held based on seeking ideal weather, having the necessary event infrastructure, etc.  I have a feeling that within the next decade, the USGA may adopt a plan (or may be forced to consider it) to build new courses specifically designed to host the US Open.  In a plan such as this, they could build the courses to be prepared for technology to continue to "advance" (ie:  8500 yard courses).  Like Mr. Dye did at TPC Sawgrass, they could also design the courses in a way that allows for great viewing by spectators (stadium style golf).  That way, they could maximize the number of people that could be on the grounds, thus maximizing ticket sales (in sports today, it is ALL ABOUT THE MONEY, and golf seems headed in the same general direction). 

So...my question is, for a tournament held in June, what cities would the USGA target as potential sites to build courses such as I describe above?  If they wish to bring their flagship event to as many regions of the country as is possible, what would be a suitable list of 8 or 10 cities that would offer ideal weather in June, and have the other infrastructure items (airport, sufficient hotels) to host this event? 

I can see this happening if they don't choose to address the ball and equipment issue.  If they are determined NOT to address those issues, having 8 or 10 courses owned by the USGA foundation would be a pretty logical plan to provide challenging venues, and allow the USGA to make the money they will be determined to make.

In which cities would you put these courses?

My rough draft:

Los Angeles
Portland
Minneapolis
Chicago
Detroit
Metro NYC
Boston
St. Louis
Dallas
Philly

TS

[Mark McKeever]

Houston is a good money pit.  The USGA should have one there.

Mark

[Garland Bayley]

When Chambers succeeded in their goal of getting a US Open, I suggested that Dallas/Fort Worth should follow the template and go for the "gold" in the same way. Turns out they are with the C&C course being built now.

[Mac Plumart]

Ted, I think your thoughts here are excellent.  And, I agree, if the powers that be choose not to control technology, then we need a rota of American courses set up for one reason, and one reason only, to host the professional golfers.  And, like you, I think the Pete Dye 8,000 yard course could be one of the prototypes.

I think it would be cool to see a rota of courses like this in:

Chicago;
East Coast (Philly/New York area);
San Francisco/Monterrey area;
Atlanta.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I suggest that the USGA build a "replica" Merion course on 500 acres near their HQ in  Far Hills, NJ.  

The original Merion, while historical,  does not have the infrastructure to handle larger crowds and allow spectators/patrons to walk the course and/or spectate in grandstands on every hole. It does, however, have public transportation. I used the SEPTA former Red Arrow line from Norristown to Ardmore Avenue and walked to the entrance nearby 12th hole. Yes, Merion in a stadium type of course might work for the USGA.

[Phil McDade]

Ted:

The USGA should move to the TPC model of Open venues?

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51901.0.html

[Josh Tarble]

Yeah, but how would these course fit into their sustainability and pace of play initiatives? 


I'm actually surprised that the USGA hasn't built their "ideal" US Open course.  But then again, aren't all the reasons you listed exactly why they chose Erin Hills and Chambers Bay?

[JSlonis]

Didn't we just finish a US Open played on a 6900 yard course with modern equipment, where ZERO of the worlds best players broke par?

Why the sudden call for new 8000 yard monstrosities? Entirely too much attention and money is spent catering to such a small segment of the golfing population. Let the pro's do their thing wherever the ruling bodies see fit. What they shoot has no bearing on the rest of the game at any level.

[Garland Bayley]

Didn't we just finish a US Open played on a 6900 yard course with modern equipment, where ZERO of the worlds best players broke par?

Why the sudden call for new 8000 yard monstrosities? Entirely too much attention and money is spent catering to such a small segment of the golfing population. Let the pro's do their thing wherever the ruling bodies see fit. What they shoot has no bearing on the rest of the game at any level.

Presumably you don't want to always test iron play from the tee on par 4s.

[Tom_Doak]

If the U.S. Open was meant to be exactly the same test of golfing skills every year, wouldn't they just pick ONE host course and keep playing it there?

The fact that they have moved the championship around to different courses from the beginning, suggests that the USGA is [or was] open to the idea that there is no ideal, and that moving the event around is the fairest way to let different sorts of players have a chance at winning.

A matched set of 8,000 yard courses would kill that premise for good, which is why I hope it never happens.

[Mac Plumart]

I'm pretty darned sure that Ted is not talking about building a set of courses that mimic each other.  Rather, I think he means building a set of courses specifically designed for testing the best of the best of the best armed with modern technology.  Hence the need for absurd length.

All this is/will be important if the powers that be choose not to reign in technological advances in the game and equipment used to play it.

[Phil McDade]

Didn't we just finish a US Open played on a 6900 yard course with modern equipment, where ZERO of the worlds best players broke par?

Why the sudden call for new 8000 yard monstrosities? Entirely too much attention and money is spent catering to such a small segment of the golfing population. Let the pro's do their thing wherever the ruling bodies see fit. What they shoot has no bearing on the rest of the game at any level.

Jamie:

But Merion's 12th and 15th greens will never be the same.

Maybe that's an appropriate price to pay to demonstrate -- with other changes such as moved fairways and new back tees -- a course as important to golfing history as Merion East is capable of holding today's players (and technology) at bay. I'm guessing with respect to Merion you're a better judge of that than me.

I'm guessing what Ted has in mind is a variety of courses, with a variety of challenges, that the USGA could "build" so it doesn't have to radically alter existing (and often historic) courses. That's one of the reasons the changes at Merion somehow make me ill at ease, but the changes at Erin Hills do not.

[RJ_Daley]

Why don't we just see how Erin Hills and Chambers Bay play out before making more pipedream proposals that have this notion of 7700=8000 yard courses to challenge the best with the new equipment?   Frankly, I can't imagine playing Erin Hills with the typical maintenance meld set-up of 25yars wide FWs and 6 inch rough and 7700 yards to boot!  The players would be swinging from their heels to meet the yardage demand and spraying them wide afield with less precision.  Then it would be a schlog to see them pitch back out into play with 300 yards left to the greens.  One might imagine 10 over winning!!! 

Of course, if they played a more matched width to added length, say 35-40 yard wide FWs, then maybe that compensation might work. 

But, why is there some call for the USGA to spend huge money on a rota of their own courses of grueling features and length just so they have a place to go that suits escalated competition to meet B&I length?  I'd rather they spend the money on grants to give their selected venues an economic and infrastructure boost and spread the wealth around to any of the clubs that apply for it.

No, I don't support a grotesque remodelling of classic old golf architecture feature ladden courses.  But, grants to improve the venues don't have to be disfiguring makeovers and can be done right, it seems to me.

[Adam Clayman]

The usga is smart enough not to get into the golf course business.

[William_G]

I suggest that the USGA build a "replica" Merion course on 500 acres near their HQ in  Far Hills, NJ.  

The original Merion, while historical,  does not have the infrastructure to handle larger crowds and allow spectators/patrons to walk the course and/or spectate in grandstands on every hole. It does, however, have public transportation. I used the SEPTA former Red Arrow line from Norristown to Ardmore Avenue and walked to the entrance nearby 12th hole. Yes, Merion in a stadium type of course might work for the USGA.

I suggest the USGA move their HQ to Bandon and use the Resort and pending Muni Links for the US Open....hahaha

forget about recreating Merion, it is what it is, thankfully, it's great as it is!

[Tim Martin]

As evidenced by Merion's ability to host a fantastic event this year I really think Ted's idea is overkill. There are plenty of worthy venues and to homogenize it to include only a few sites would be a shame. The USGA has a 250 million dollar war chest and just like this year can kick in a little extra when required.

[JSlonis]

Phil,

I understand your comments regarding Merion. I've always believed the USGA didn't really need to do all that they did for the course to still pose a great challenge to the best players, and I don't like the work that was done to 12 & 15. Merion has always had very difficult greens and tough rough. That combination proved it still holds up to modern technology. Obviously not all courses possess the great architecture of Merion but the call for 7500-8000 yd courses is just overkill IMO.

Congressional was 7500 yards and soft and there was record scoring. Merion was 6900 yds and soft and guys really struggled. I've played both courses numerous times and even without the deeper rough, day in and day out, Merion is a much tougher course to score well on.

[Garland Bayley]

Let's get serious about Merion. Without choking away 4 strokes on Sunday, Phil would have won handily without a driver in his bag. So one idea one might take away from this is that the US Open at Merion is a test of who can play best without driver.

If I want to see who is best playing par 4s with 5 iron/wedge, I can just watch the club championship at my home course.

[Tim Martin]

Let's get serious about Merion. Without choking away 4 strokes on Sunday, Phil would have won handily without a driver in his bag. So one idea one might take away from this is that the US Open at Merion is a test of who can play best without driver.

If I want to see who is best playing par 4s with 5 iron/wedge, I can just watch the club championship at my home course.

If that's what you take away from Merion then you must be operating in some sort of parallel universe. Woulda/coulda/shouda scenarios are for dreamers.

[Garland Bayley]

... the call for 7500-8000 yd courses is just overkill IMO.
...

If's that's what you take away from Merion then you must be operating in some sort of parallel universe. Woulda/coulda/shouda scenarios are for dreamers.

[Bill Brightly]

Let's get serious about Merion. Without choking away 4 strokes on Sunday, Phil would have won handily without a driver in his bag. So one idea one might take away from this is that the US Open at Merion is a test of who can play best without driver.

If I want to see who is best playing par 4s with 5 iron/wedge, I can just watch the club championship at my home course.

With the hot 3-woods these guys are playing, simply taking driver out of the bag means nothing. And God do I hate people using the choke word, when it was obviously the extremely difficult conditions that led to the 4 strokes you allude to (including a bad decision on 13 overestimating the wind.)

[Garland Bayley]

Let's get serious about Merion. Without choking away 4 strokes on Sunday, Phil would have won handily without a driver in his bag. So one idea one might take away from this is that the US Open at Merion is a test of who can play best without driver.

If I want to see who is best playing par 4s with 5 iron/wedge, I can just watch the club championship at my home course.

With the hot 3-woods these guys are playing, simply taking driver out of the bag means nothing.

If that were true, why would only one player do it? Does it not mean at a minimum giving up 10 yards off the tee? That's what it would mean for hacker me, for them wouldn't it mean more?


And God do I hate people using the choke word, when it was obviously the extremely difficult conditions that led to the 4 strokes you allude to (including a bad decision on 13 overestimating the wind.)

Just channeling my inner Johnny Miller. I can accept one three putt maybe being due to "extremely difficult conditions", but two?
Probably the same for wedge shots.

[Joel_Stewart]

The usga is smart enough not to get into the golf course business.

They have explored it for many years.   I was told by a former USGA president that it was discussed back in the 1970's.

[Jeff Goldman]

When 5 or 6 approach shots at Merion are in the 220-250 (or more) range, how short is it really playing?

[Ted Sturges]

The usga is smart enough not to get into the golf course business.

They have explored it for many years.   I was told by a former USGA president that it was discussed back in the 1970's.

I've thought about this notion quite a bit...and there are implications and unintended consquences for the USGA not being an owner/operator and the same if they were in this business.  But...what's wrong with the USGA owning golf courses?  There are quite a few positives.  The decisions made by the USGA affect all golf course owners/operators (see:  banning anchoring the putter).  Perhaps the USGA would view those decisions in a different light if they owned golf courses and were working hard to make those facilities turn a profit.

TS