The St. Andrews of America

[Emile Bonfiglio]

On Geoff Shac's blog there were some comments about Merion being America's version of St. Andrews. I don't see the connection. Others said that it would be Pebble, Bandon, Pinehurst, even Bethpage. So where is it?

EDIT: The criteria for comparison was not given, so lets say accessibility, influence & history (thought not a must)...unless you've got something better to go off of.

[Mark McKeever]

I would guess NGLA becuase it has templates and is located on the coast.

Mark

[Mac Plumart]

What is his basis for the comparison?  Home of Golf?  Public/muni golf?  A community of golfers?

I'd think Pinehurst is the best fit. 

But again, what aspects of St. Andrews was he comparing?

[Garland Bayley]

What about Shinnecock?


Of course being from OR, you should know that Astoria CC makes the claim.

[Joel_Stewart]

On Geoff Shac's blog there were some comments about Merion being America's version of St. Andrews. I don't see the connection. Others said that it would be Pebble, Bandon, Pinehurst, even Bethpage. So where is it?

I saw that also and was completely taken off guard.  I've never heard of Merion being considered as the home of American golf or in anyway considered the benchmark for greatness here in the US.

Without getting into a discussion of what is (it's fruitless, much like discussing what is the best course) doesn't it make sense to consider only a public course since any golfer could enjoy it.   

[Bob_Huntley]

With tongue in cheek, may I suggest the New Course at  Grand Cypress?

Bob

[Steve Lang]

  Joel,

I totally concur that it has to be public.

Pinehurst fits best in my mind.. then Pebble

[Rick Shefchik]

Joel,

I totally concur that it has to be public.

Pinehurst fits best in my mind.. then Pebble

I see this question another way. Since most golfers will never play TOC, but know it well from television, public familiarity and affection does not necessarily depend on public access. Tradition, influence, respect and attention seem to be the primary factors TOC has going for it, and for that reason, I'd say Augusta National is the home of American golf.

[Garland Bayley]

Chambers Bay.

[Jim Nugent]

Tradition, influence, respect and attention seem to be the primary factors TOC has going for it, and for that reason, I'd say Augusta National is the home of American golf.

I think MacKenzie designed ANGC with TOC principles in mind.  I know he patterned a few holes after TOC holes.  7 at ANGC was his version of 18 at TOC.  And either 4 or 6 was his take on the Eden. 

[Josh Tarble]

When I read that, I just took it to mean that Merion was really at the heart of the community.  Parties were happening all along the course and people were piling up on the outside for a look in.

It was really cool in how close the course is to the roads and train station and in those ways Merion is similar.  But it being immensely private just really makes that comparison seem silly.

[Jeff Evagues]

Tradition, influence, respect and attention seem to be the primary factors TOC has going for it, and for that reason, I'd say Augusta National is the home of American golf.

I think MacKenzie designed ANGC with TOC principles in mind.  I know he patterned a few holes after TOC holes.  7 at ANGC was his version of 18 at TOC.  And either 4 or 6 was his take on the Eden. 

I could never understand how a hilly parkland course could be compared to a flat links course. There isn't one hole at AN that looks like any hole at TOC.

[Mark McKeever]

Agreed.  I don't believe Augusta belongs in this thread as it's nothing like its original intent.  Unless we are shifting the thread to discuss "Americanized" golf.

Mark

[Jon Wiggett]

Joel,

I totally concur that it has to be public.

Pinehurst fits best in my mind.. then Pebble

I see this question another way. Since most golfers will never play TOC, but know it well from television, public familiarity and affection does not necessarily depend on public access. Tradition, influence, respect and attention seem to be the primary factors TOC has going for it, and for that reason, I'd say Augusta National is the home of American golf.

Rick,

the reason that most people won't play TOC is not due to it not being possible. TOC is a public course open to any paying the GF and booking a time and offering cheap yearly golf subs to any locals who want it. Augusta is about as far away from TOC as you can get in almost everyway.

I would have thought PB was about there except for the excessive GF

Jon

[Mark Bourgeois]

In my mind it is unquestionably Pinehurst. Both towns are all about the gawf; it's in the culture as well as the commerce in ways other places aren't. Both have a top-drawer famous course with lots of little progeny ("descendant courses") running around. And each has plenty of golf on offer.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Bethpage may not resemble TOC, but the ethos of the complex is a valid comparison.  Pinehurst is similar, but the aura has been compromised by the economics to play there.  Stay overnight in the car line to find out how special Bethpage is and how people truly feel about golf.  I'm serious... everyone should do it at least once.

[Ross Tuddenham]

Maybe there isn't a St Andrews of America. 

[Jim Nugent]

Tradition, influence, respect and attention seem to be the primary factors TOC has going for it, and for that reason, I'd say Augusta National is the home of American golf.

I think MacKenzie designed ANGC with TOC principles in mind.  I know he patterned a few holes after TOC holes.  7 at ANGC was his version of 18 at TOC.  And either 4 or 6 was his take on the Eden. 

I could never understand how a hilly parkland course could be compared to a flat links course. There isn't one hole at AN that looks like any hole at TOC.

Here's how Daniel Wexler, in his GCA Opinion Piece on how ANGC has changed through the years, explains the similarities:

"Given Bobby Jones’s love of St. Andrews, and Dr. MacKenzie’s status as a former consulting architect to the Royal & Ancient Golf Club, the influence of the great Scottish links upon Augusta’s design was inevitable.  But unlike so many American courses which have turned “Links Golf” into the most meaningless marketing phrase since that old 1970’s favorite, “PGA Championship Course,” Augusta actually made good, initially featuring at least seven greens (including the 1st, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 14th and 17th) upon which the run-up was the favored method of approach, and no less than nine holes which MacKenzie cited as bearing specific characteristics of famous British holes, with several being nearly direct replicas."

Also: "Both Bobby Jones, 13-time Major champion and the greatest amateur golfer of all-time, and Dr. Alister MacKenzie, frequently considered the greatest course designer in history, believed in creating strategic holes whose challenge was as much mental as physical, with multiple angles of play generally allowing golfers of all abilities a chance to effectively navigate their way along. To accomplish this, they built Augusta with uniquely wide fairways so wide, in fact, that for the great majority of its history, the club was devoid of appreciable rough altogether. As a countermeasure to this apparent generosity, green complexes were intended to be especially challenging, the often severe contouring of the putting surfaces allowing for some demanding tournament pin positions and, more importantly, greatly favoring approach shots played from specific places. Thus a fairway might measure a full 60 yards in width, but only the player skilled enough to position their tee ball within, say, a particular 10-yard section (generally far right or left) would be rewarded with an ideal angle from which to attack. Those less skilled might still be approaching from the fairway, but generally from angles where the greens hazards, elevation and/or contouring would repel all but the a perfectly struck shot."

[Jud_T]

The Bandon complex is obviously The St. Andrews of America.

[Ronald Montesano]

Now, I'm a humble guy, not known for making his opinions public...

You're welcome. Now, on to my opinion.

Augusta National-No. No access for the public to play, only one course, hosts a major championship every year, no connection to the origin of golf in its country, no connection to a great architectural figure (as St. Andrews had with OTM and DR.)

Bandon Dunes-No. Only due to the timing. It has everything else in spaces, and holds in my op the title of "Home of the Rebirth of American Golf."

Bethpage-No. The course complex is fascinating. There are few weak holes among the 90. I expected the Yellow, Blue and Green to have some, but they don't. Solid golf from 1st tee to 90th green. No real interest in the surrounding towns for golf. The denizens of the courses love their golf, don't get me wrong, but the fever/flavor does not extend into Farmingdale, Old Bethpage and beyond.

Myrtle Beach-No. Tempting, but no. It's a vacation destination first and a golfing destination second. I know that sound odd at first blush, but it's true. MB is also way too spread out to have any intimacy. What I think is cool about MB is the massive distance between the most northern and southern courses under the umbrella. No other place can make that claim. MB deserves its own special niche, just as Bandon has one.

Pinehurst-Yes. It's the closest thing we have to a St. Andrews. There can be no replica and we'd be fools to expect one. Scotland is a smaller and different country from this beast we call the USA. Pinehurst has the resort itself (8 courses, soon to be 9) and a great number more that surround. It has the village (noted by others) that loves its golf. It has the figures of James Tufts and Donald Ross, irremovable from golfing histories. It has the putting course at the resort. I'm told it even allows folks to walk the #2 course (you'll have to confirm) as long as they stay to the pathways. There are, however, no picnics nor dogs along the fairways.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I come by these opinions thanks to research I did for an upcoming web and print article. You may PM me for details on it, should you have interest.

[Adam Clayman]

Emile, The comparison was based on number of USGA championships played v. R&A championships played on TOC.

[Eric Smith]

Golf architecture-wise, I have heard or read on more than a few occasions that Wolf Point in Texas can best be described as St Andrews in America.

[Tim_Weiman]

Ronald,

Did I read your post correctly? Did you really mean to suggest Augusta National has no connection to a great figure in golf architecture history?

[Ronald Montesano]

Yes, Tim, you did. It isn't the course that Mackenzie and Jones designed. It has been altered so much that it is more a TPC than an original Mackenzie. And I'm not certain how great the original was, to be honest.

Any issues with the rest of the post? Not being prickly, you know, just offering the chance to have at it.

[Bill_McBride]

Golf architecture-wise, I have heard or read on more than a few occasions that Wolf Point in Texas can best be described as St Andrews in America.

I've said that, but of course in the physical, topographical, strategic, ground game meaning.  Not to mention the wind.