News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Ben Hogan considered long in his day?
« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2013, 08:32:06 AM »
I have no idea if he was considered as a longer player back in his heyday. The reason I ask is, if he was not, then why extend 18 SOOOOO far back that even todays bombers barely make it to his plaque. Now if he was the longest guy on tour when he played, then no problem. For some reason, I do not think he was the longest and 18 at Merion is too long.

Look at the shot Justin Rose hit. By all definitions it was perfect, but barreled through the green. No birdies in the last two days? Totally unacceptable.

Pete Dye wrote something in his book I'd not heard before and that really made me think. He said long drivers back in the day could be nearly as long as today's floggers -- but in a completely different way.

Dye wrote the golfers of yesteryear got more of their yardage on the ground. Therefore, they had to negotiate the features and hazards on the ground. I used to just think about I&B, especially its role in creating the all-aerial flogger game of today. But maintenance set up not just differently back in the day but in a way that complemented the I&B. And isn't what these crazy setups today are doing to challenge today's floggers? Lush, thick rough, back tees, narrow fairways, etc.

I guess it's not news to note that today's floggers play an all-aerial game but when I read Dye's comments the light bulb went off regarding the relationship of I&B to maintenance. Seeing some of these old Jones pics showing his driving distances -- or the 1950 Fazio yardages -- it made sense to me how Jones could be belting out 300-yard drives with such equipment. If we roll back I&B we might not see floggers hit it too much shorter than they do now -- how much I suppose would depend on whatever distance standard was adopted -- but my larger hope is if the ball is changed it is done so in a way that requires floggers to interact with the ground more. In turn I would hope maintenance practices "roll back" as well. That would require a change in maintenance practices but would be both good for sustainability and for golf spectating.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Ben Hogan considered long in his day?
« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2013, 09:36:42 AM »
As was noted earlier, though Ben was not a big man, he was fit, had strong forearms and hands, plus a relentless drive when it came to perfecting his ballstriking. I remember reading that he also had the heaviest weighted clubs on tour during much of his career. Those factors certainly would have him longer than average, but perhaps not out there with the real gorillas of his era. He regularly reached the par fives in two, so he had to have substantial length to accomplish that on a regular basis.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Was Ben Hogan considered long in his day?
« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2013, 09:43:59 AM »
Kris,

Those factors do just the opposite.

The heavier the club, the more difficult to generate club head speed.

The smaller the man, the smaller the arc, especially a flat swing with the right elbow tucked into the body.

Every golfer on the PGA Tour is long, but that doesn't mean they're long in comparison to their peers.

Snead was long.

How did Hogan compare to Fazio in the 1950 Open ?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Ben Hogan considered long in his day?
« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2013, 11:33:30 AM »
To believe those photos you have to believe that Fazio hit a 175 yard drive on #4 followed by a 375 yard second shot.

Nothing but a quaint bit of antiquity.

Garland,

Is it your stated opinion that Hogan was longer than Fazio ?

Or, that Fazio was longer than Hogan ?

Which is it ?



Which part of don't trust the pictures don't you understand?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Brent Hutto

Re: Was Ben Hogan considered long in his day?
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2013, 11:42:46 AM »
Hell I've probably hit a 300-yard drive at some point on a rock-hard course in the UK with a 25mph wind behind me. I certainly did hit driver/3-wood about 520 yards one time at Formby, severely downwind/downhill. I'm still a 200-yard driver though. There's a difference in talking about driving distance of such-and-such:

Including running the ball 60 yards along the ground IF the fairway is firm enough and IF you can dodge all obstructions and IF you get a big, low draw to turn over just right.

Purely in terms of how far you can fly the ball in the air.

Someone who hits a 300-yard drive with 10 yards of roll is LONGER than someone who can only hit a 300-yard drive with 60 yards of roll. More length through the air means not having to cope with the vagaries of fairway firmness, ground obstacle placement and contours. Of course those old guys had to hit running hooks and dodge bunkers and rough to get their distance, it's because they did not have the capability of hitting over all that stuff.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Ben Hogan considered long in his day?
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2013, 11:45:28 AM »
What is the point of this bickering?   As one of the very top players of his era, Hogan could certainly drive the ball far enough to beat most of his contemporaries.   In 1953 he was recovering from a catastrophic accident and surgeries so most likely not in usual form.  He was still able to reach the 18th under great pressure with driver and long iron.  Only some 25% were able to do that 60 years later.  
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 12:52:07 PM by Bill_McBride »

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Ben Hogan considered long in his day?
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2013, 12:36:59 PM »
At 1:23 of this video, Sam Snead, speaking about Ben Hogan, says "He was long. He was about as long as anybody."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqyRuzcU8sI

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Ben Hogan considered long in his day?
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2013, 03:15:50 PM »
At 1:23 of this video, Sam Snead, speaking about Ben Hogan, says "He was long. He was about as long as anybody."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqyRuzcU8sI

David,

I am sure that a certain person will be able to discredit Mr. Snead on this or presume the video is a fake. I mean, can you produce certificates of authenticity for this video? ;D

According to his peers, Hogan was one of the purest strikes of the ball and this is the most important thing regarding length. I know some here have said he was small but so is Ian Woosnam and he was certainly one of the longest hitters in his heyday.

Jon 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Was Ben Hogan considered long in his day?
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2013, 07:12:32 AM »

At 1:23 of this video, Sam Snead, speaking about Ben Hogan, says "He was long. He was about as long as anybody."

ABOUT as long as anybody ?
So was he short by Snead's standards ?

I guess Snead had never heard of Fazio, who consistently outdrove Hogan in the 1950 Open.

But, rather than quote questionable comments, or if you prefer, third party hearsay, did any of you morons actually see Hogan and Snead play golf, in person ?  ?  ?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqyRuzcU8sI

Steve Wilson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Ben Hogan considered long in his day?
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2013, 09:00:03 AM »
Yes, Hogan was long.  Being long doesn't mean or even hint at benig the longest.  One is an adjective the other is a superlative.   He was considrered long by his peers and he was clearly able to reach par fives in two--a dead giveaway that he was long enough.   No one doubts he was long just as no one as indicated he was the longest.  Tiger is long, but he's not the longest.  No one, including the King of Green Font doubts this.  He just likes to quibble.   And now, having stuck my head up like a ground hog at Chuck E. Cheese, I'm crawling back into my hole before I become collateral damage on this thread.   

HOGAN WAS LONG.
Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Ben Hogan considered long in his day?
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2013, 10:46:59 AM »
From The Lurker:

The word on Ben Hogan's length was always unique to me. The people who knew him and played with him said he was pretty long in comparison to most of his fellow competitors but only if he wanted to be which apparently was not very often.
 
My father who was a good national amateur and a really dedicated student of the game and the swing played quite a lot of golf with Hogan, and most always at Seminole. Most of the time when they played they were playing to practice. Dad also played 2-3 times a week with Tommy Armour at the old Delray Beach GC. He knew most all those guys and although it did not occur to me back then, I guess one of the reasons he knew so many of them was he was in the business--he was the southern tier (Florida and south Georgia) rep for Spalding. Another of his responsibilities was to take care of all the LPGA players who played Spalding, and a lot of them were taught by Armour.
 
Those guys talked about the dynamics of the swing all the time and what it could produce in shot making and strategic golf. Some of them were what I would call the old fashioned "shot makers" and Hogan was certainly one of the best that way, probably THE best. Back then Hogan was considered to be the ultimate in strategic shot making course management. According to my father a lot of guys kidded Hogan (not to his face but behind his back) that most of his drives were what they called "dinks" or "shrimps"----a little controlled fade that wasn't long at all; actually I guess that standard tee shot of his was remarkably short for a player of his caliber. My father said he (my father) could hit the ball seven different ways on call. Curiously since I used to shag for him when I was a kid I only saw six of them----low straight, high straight, low fade, high fade, low draw, high draw. Being on the receiving end of his practice sessions it was remarkable to me how he could do that with practically every club. Watching the ball come out curving one way or the other high and low seemed remarkable. According to Dad Hogan did the same kind of thing in his practice sessions.
 
Hogan had a natural draw or hook in the beginning of his career and he worked long and hard to perfect his standard shot----a noticeable fade. I always heard he did that because he thought it was a shot that was so much more controllable than the others. But according to my father he had all the shot types and shapes on call. To get distance off the tee particularly, he drew it, low or high depending on strategic architecture factors and conditions.
 
When I started playing a lot in my early 30s and Dad was teaching me strategic golf and shot making, he said Hogan was the model in another way----eg don't ever try to compete with anyone you were playing with by trying to hit it as far as they were or to try to do something they were doing. Hogan was the ideal that way----he just played in his own little bubble seemingly oblivious to the shots other people he was playing with were using.
 
How long was Hogan or how long could he be in real yardage distance if he wanted to be? You got me, I only know they all said he could be as long as most anyone if he wanted to be. How did he do it? I think it came from what they call "delayed lag." You could see it in his back swing and particularly his down swing where it looked like the shaft came close to hitting his right shoulder when his hands were more than halfway down on his down swing. The club looked like it was coming towards impact in a noticeable whipping action. This was in stark contrast to another guy later on I would call, Hoganesque in his course management strategies----eg Nick Faldo. I played with him once at Merion East, and I was pretty surprised how big he was. But I was really surprised he didn't hit it longer than he looked like he could. He even said he was not long compared to many of his fellow tour competitors. It was very wet that day and we played from the new tips. Since it was so wet I could calculate his tee shot distance very accurately----it was right around 260 and he did that like a robot. If he wanted a little extra he would hit a highish draw which got him about 5 to 10 yards more in carry distance.
 
The guy who was ultra long back then (much longer than the rest) was a great big guy who sure looked the part of an ultra long driver----George Bayer. I did see him play at Piping Rock and he seemed freaky long, maybe even by today's standards. He could get it out there around 300+. I remember him on the 18th at Piping Rock. Back then I never saw anyone hit that green in two but Bayer did it with ease.
 
Hogan had what I would call a very unique torso that was quite noticeable even if one did not know he was Ben Hogan. I saw that first hand. My father and I were about the only ones left at Seminole one evening and I went out of the locker room ahead of him. This man walked by me going the other way. I said hello and he said hello right back very politely. I really did notice what a unique torso he had; he was on the shortish side but it seemed like his lower torso was much shorter and way more powerful than a man with his upper torso should have.
 
When we got in the car my father said: "That man you just walked by was Ben Hogan,." and with that it became something I will never forget because I didn't even recognize him.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Ben Hogan considered long in his day?
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2013, 10:47:47 AM »
Distances Hogan hit.  Check out this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URhivvlomCM
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Charlie Gallagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Ben Hogan considered long in his day?
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2013, 09:22:22 AM »
Joe, Tommy, and the Lurker,
   In 1940, at the start of the touring season Hogan finished 2nd to Titanic Thompson in a long drive contest in Los Angeles . Thompson was considered the longest player of his era. Hogan's swing had a large arc for a man of his size and he generated a freakish amount of lag.
   It is important to note, I think, that Hogan was far less concerned with length, and was far more concerned with control. He was supremely confident in his ability to be accurate with the longer clubs, and would forgoe distance in return for angle advantage, taking into account hazard location, fairway slope etc. This is very different from the strategy of play we see on the modern tour for most players. They will often hit it as far as possible to get the shortest lengthed club in their hands for the approach. But Hogan was as confident with a four wood in his hand as he was with a shorter iron. Arthur Daly of the New York Times followed Hogan around in a practice round prior to the US Open at Oakmont in 1953. Hogan routinely hit 3 balls from each tee, one cut, one hooked, and one down the middle. He explained to Daly his strategy prior to a number of his swings and Daly was astounded by  his ability to hit the exact shot he had described in advance, again and again. Daly was especially impressed with his accuracy with the longer fairway woods.
    This ability is further confirmed by the display of shot making a 52 year old Hogan put on in his match against Sam Snead in 1964's  Shells Wonderful World of Golf at Houston Country Club. Hogan hit every green in regulation. Control on display.

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Ben Hogan considered long in his day?
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2013, 01:11:03 PM »
    This ability is further confirmed by the display of shot making a 52 year old Hogan put on in his match against Sam Snead in 1964's  Shells Wonderful World of Golf at Houston Country Club. Hogan hit every green in regulation. Control on display.

Hogan sometimes looked like he didn't take the club back to even vertical in that match. 

Charlie Gallagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Ben Hogan considered long in his day?
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2013, 01:39:29 PM »
Jim,
    I have the disk and have watched it many times. I will agree that Hogan did not "cross the line" or take it back much further than his right arm being just beyond parallel with the ground, he didn't need to due to the width in his swing. 
    If you look at the swings of Hogan, Snead, Palmer, Nicklaus, and others from that era before the intoduction of metal heads and graphite shafts, you'll notice some consistent features. All of those players had cosiderable hip turn, far greater than we see in the modern swing. This is true even though Hogans turn became more restricted after the encounter with the bus.  They had to employ hip turn to generate power. You'll also notice that one of the ways they created hip turn was by straightening out the right leg on the backswing. All these guys tended to play with their heads down. This is apparent when you look at caddie views of these players. The head down position promotes a steeper shoulder angle. These players were also centered over the ball in their backswings which helped with consistent contact. Modern equipment lets you get away with moves that the older, less forgiving, sticks would not let you do. The solid core ball has also had an enormous influence on iron play over the last 14 years or so. It reacts extremely well to hybrid and wood contact due to less spin, but because of that tendency to spin less it doesn't react as well off the face of a straight faced iron. If you hit a modern ball with a 1972 2 iron you will be stunned at how quickly it falls out of the sky.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Was Ben Hogan considered long in his day?
« Reply #65 on: June 24, 2013, 01:20:27 AM »
Charlie,

There's not a tour player, today or in the past that wasn't concerned about length.

Length is THE primary factor.

That's what created the "bomb and gouge" tactic

You can't hit all 18 greens with 3-woods, you can with wedges.

I recently had a conversation with Hank Haney and he stated that length was the critical factor in golf.
I discovered that when I first began playing in major events.

Arnold Palmer, when he first came on tour advised young golfers to try to hit it as far as they could, adding that they'll learn control, but, if you build as wing for control, you'll never hit the ball long.

My dad played in the 1949 and 1951 U.S. Open and was very friendly with Snead, Armour, Ghezzi, Harmon, Penna and other Pros and played a good deal of golf with them.

Hogan wasn't as long as Snead and both were born in 1912, as was my dad

Charlie Gallagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Ben Hogan considered long in his day?
« Reply #66 on: June 24, 2013, 07:43:27 AM »
Patrick,
    I don't want to be misinterpreted here. I am not discounting length as a primary factor, the primary factor in many situations. Hogan possessed perhaps the supreme combination of length and ability to shape and control.
   I know an eye witness, a pga player who saw Hogan play a practice round at his last Open at Baltusrol. He described  his practice session prior to that round on one of the holes on the upper course. The caddie dumped balls out of a bowling style bag then paced to 110 yards.  Hogan hit wedges which the caddie caught in the bag after one bounce. after 10 shots the caddie backed up and Hogan hit 9 irons etc. When he finally got to the driver he was hitting the ball 270+.
   The man was essentially blind in his left eye at that point in his life due to the bus accident. But still long and in control.

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Ben Hogan considered long in his day?
« Reply #67 on: June 24, 2013, 09:17:55 AM »
Pat,

If the man is strong as hell he can move that heavy club plenty fast...as his REGULAR longer length confirmed. He obviously had the ability to hit the bomb when he needed to, but more often opted for powered control with his game.  Height and size alone don't determine arc. Flexibility, limb length, lag, etc ALL factor in. I've seen plenty of smaller folks move it pretty deep and so have you. Does size offer advantages? Sure, but that's only part of the equation.

Hogan probably had as strong a body, pound for pound, as ANYBODY in the game, EVER. Who else recovers from that serious accident he suffered and wins a Major not long after. Remember, there were no physical therapy programs and the like of any muscular nature back then. Only his fitness and solid genetics made possible his recovery to the top of the game in that short a recovery time.

Snead was longer and there were and handful of others. So what? The topic of the thread has but one answer....yes.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 09:23:16 AM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Charlie Gallagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Ben Hogan considered long in his day?
« Reply #68 on: June 24, 2013, 09:51:05 AM »
Kris,
    Good observations, Patrick as well. Healthy discussion.
    Hogan fought a hook for many years, even after he broke through and won in 1940. Henry Picard helped him find a way to counteract it's tendency to show up late in rounds under pressure. The driver Hogan used to take off in his victory run in the spring of 1940 was given to him by Byron Nelson. Nelson didn't like it's weight, but Hogan adopted it immediately. It was heavy, I don't know how much it weighed. I speculate that its characteristics may have helped counter a hook.
   Kris, your point about Bantam Bens strength is right on. As I pointed out before, but will emphasize again, Hogan had large hands for a man his size and played his irons 4 degrees flat from standard.  I expect that he liked them flat due to his arm length. I have seen some of the clubs he played with in his later years and one of the things that struck me was his irons had no discernable bounce. They are knife edged blades. That's a very unforgiving set up, but in the hands of a technician would promote control over ball flight.
    If you study film of Hogan one of the first things you'll notice, even in his swing in 1968, is the size of his arc. It was even bigger before the bus accident. The man had superior balance, a characteristic he shared with Snead.
   One more point, people say Hogan was flat. I say, compared to what? We know he had a short torso and likely had long arms. His clubs were lied flat due to his physical makeup. Hogan swung on plane or just above it if you disect the images. If he had been under the plane with those knife blades he would have had to compensate somewhere to avoid hitting it very fat.
   Snead has a more syrupy and natural action than Hogan, and he was probably more physically efficient than Hogan, but there is no denying the latters accuracy. A similar point can be made about Trevino. Physically less efficient, but his ability to repeat the action and get the flight he wanted was  very consistent.

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Ben Hogan considered long in his day?
« Reply #69 on: June 24, 2013, 10:34:25 AM »
I'd be interested to hear someone knowledgeable analyze Moe Norman's swing. 


Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back