[Terry Lavin]

I generally enjoy reading the posts on this site - but the constant barrage of tiger hate is just getting to be over the top. Every single move Tiger makes (especially at the Open and most all other golf tournaments) is seen from multple camera angles and numerous witnesses on site. At the Open each group has a rules official; Tiger's group is followed by multiple TV commentators and cameras; if there was any hint of a bad drop (in light of the 15th at the Master's) or some other violation on Tiger's part, it would all over - yet on this site it is not even raised as a possibility. Tried, convicted and executed - Tiger cheated! DQ the SOB!

David,

It's the one-trick pony crew. Find clicker, press repeat.

[Jud_T]

apparently feeling smug about his golfers' elbow as some sort of poetic justice isn't sufficient.  Pouring salt in the wound is the obvious next step.  Perhaps someone clever can come up with a virtual burning in effigy...My mom, who knows absolutely nothing about golf and has never touched a club outside of a miniature golf course, stopped by yesterday while I had the Open on.  She immediately started rooting vociferously against Tiger for his indiscretions.  Frankly I was shocked at the extent of her rancor against a guy she'd never met playing a sport she doesn't follow or partake in.  All the Tiger haters here are simply members of the same tribe cloaked in the sheep's clothing of knowledgeable and experienced golfers.  

[Doug Ralston]

Well;

It been ongoing for 15 yrs. But since 2008 [significant date?] it has raised to hysterical proportions. And not just on GCA, of course. It has become so important to those who live it that they cannot actually hear themselves, the drive drowns all of that out. This pile has been in their nose so long that they have learned to love the odor.

Honestly, I think they can only cure their rage by never again watching or speaking about Professional Golf or politics. I suggest a nice golf retreat with the family and NO access to a computer. Say a year, and the withdrawal symptoms should subside. 

Doug

[Martin Toal]

I generally enjoy reading the posts on this site - but the constant barrage of tiger hate is just getting to be over the top. Every single move Tiger makes (especially at the Open and most all other golf tournaments) is seen from multple camera angles and numerous witnesses on site. At the Open each group has a rules official; Tiger's group is followed by multiple TV commentators and cameras; if there was any hint of a bad drop (in light of the 15th at the Master's) or some other violation on Tiger's part, it would all over - yet on this site it is not even raised as a possibility. Tried, convicted and executed - Tiger cheated! DQ the SOB!

Well, without commenting on the alleged rules issue, you can't really be surprised that everything he does receives intense scrutiny. Tiger and his marketing team have built his brand up to the point where his every action is covered almost to the point of Peter Kostis doing a slo-mo analysis of him scratching his butt, and the value of his brand lies in the intensity of that coverage. Unfortunately the flip side of that coin is that questionable actions will attract the same level of scrutiny. No doubt his agent would prefer that stuff which didn't enhance the brand was not covered, but in this day and age that is not possible.

Another effect is that there are people - you may be one of them - who react to any negative comment on His Tigerness like it is blasphemy.

[Jeff Goldman]

Has anyone here said what actually happened?  How do we know it didn't simply land on a sprinkler head?

[Sean Leary]

Has anyone here said what actually happened?  How do we know it didn't simply land on a sprinkler head?

Jeff, please stop.

Logic and reason have no place in this thread. I bet that today that he slips a tee under his ball in the rough to get an advantage.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Sorry to bother you.  Just reporting what I saw and heard.

[Keith OHalloran]

Jim, I was also listening, and the announcers said that a Marshall may have stepped on the ball when trying to find it. Did you hear/see that?

[Jim_Coleman]

   Did not.  That would be odd, as the marshals were putting little flags next to the balls.  Looked to me like Tiger called the marshal over.

[Pete_Pittock]

Jim,
Tiger wouldn't have called a marshall over, he would ask for a referee, which is the term for a rules official. The marshals are the ones with the little flags who search for and mark the position of the ball with the flag. Ocassionally you find a ball by stepping on it.

[Jim_Coleman]

   It was a referee - white shirt.  The marshals have striped shirts.  Sorry for the confusion.

[Jim Nugent]

apparently feeling smug about his golfers' elbow as some sort of poetic justice isn't sufficient.  Pouring salt in the wound is the obvious next step.  Perhaps someone clever can come up with a virtual burning in effigy...My mom, who knows absolutely nothing about golf and has never touched a club outside of a miniature golf course, stopped by yesterday while I had the Open on.  She immediately started rooting vociferously against Tiger for his indiscretions.  Frankly I was shocked at the extent of her rancor against a guy she'd never met playing a sport she doesn't follow or partake in.  All the Tiger haters here are simply members of the same tribe cloaked in the sheep's clothing of knowledgeable and experienced golfers.  

I really don't understand this.  We have an eyewitness report, from ten yards away, of what could be a rules violation.  The announcers immediately seized on it as well.  The player himself showed an ignorance of the rules recently (Masters) and would have been DQ'd except for a spotter on TV and the officials' incompetence.   

How is it unreasonable -- an example of 'haters' -- to want to know what happened? 

[Richard Choi]

Because everyone jumped to the worst possible outcome possible without any supporting evidence. If marshal stepped on the ball by mistake, the everything Tiger did made perfect sense. If Phil did the same thing, there would not even be a peep.

[Rick Shefchik]

Because everyone jumped to the worst possible outcome possible without any supporting evidence. If marshal stepped on the ball by mistake, the everything Tiger did made perfect sense. If Phil did the same thing, there would not even be a peep.

We'll have to wait until Phil does something like that to know for sure.

[Pete_Pittock]

apparently feeling smug about his golfers' elbow as some sort of poetic justice isn't sufficient.  Pouring salt in the wound is the obvious next step.  Perhaps someone clever can come up with a virtual burning in effigy...My mom, who knows absolutely nothing about golf and has never touched a club outside of a miniature golf course, stopped by yesterday while I had the Open on.  She immediately started rooting vociferously against Tiger for his indiscretions.  Frankly I was shocked at the extent of her rancor against a guy she'd never met playing a sport she doesn't follow or partake in.  All the Tiger haters here are simply members of the same tribe cloaked in the sheep's clothing of knowledgeable and experienced golfers.  

I really don't understand this.  We have an eyewitness report, from ten yards away, of what could be a rules violation.  The announcers immediately seized on it as well.  The player himself showed an ignorance of the rules recently (Masters) and would have been DQ'd except for a spotter on TV and the officials' incompetence.  

How is it unreasonable -- an example of 'haters' -- to want to know what happened?  

Then he probably shouldn't have used the word cheat in his opening sentence.

[Jud_T]

apparently feeling smug about his golfers' elbow as some sort of poetic justice isn't sufficient.  Pouring salt in the wound is the obvious next step.  Perhaps someone clever can come up with a virtual burning in effigy...My mom, who knows absolutely nothing about golf and has never touched a club outside of a miniature golf course, stopped by yesterday while I had the Open on.  She immediately started rooting vociferously against Tiger for his indiscretions.  Frankly I was shocked at the extent of her rancor against a guy she'd never met playing a sport she doesn't follow or partake in.  All the Tiger haters here are simply members of the same tribe cloaked in the sheep's clothing of knowledgeable and experienced golfers.  

I really don't understand this.  We have an eyewitness report, from ten yards away, of what could be a rules violation.  The announcers immediately seized on it as well.  The player himself showed an ignorance of the rules recently (Masters) and would have been DQ'd except for a spotter on TV and the officials' incompetence.   

How is it unreasonable -- an example of 'haters' -- to want to know what happened? 

Jim,

There's nothing wrong with wanting to know what happened.  It's the presumption of guilt, calling him a cheat for having a ruling go his way and instant questioning of his on-course integrity without any concrete basis which is wrong.  Some people simply won't be happy until he's shining shoes in the locker room at Merion.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Jim Coleman: the language you used in your opening post without knowing the full facts is arguably libelous. I'd consider changing it if I were you. If nothing else for your own credibility.

And maybe change the title of the thread too...


While I feel its fine to discuss his every action without me questioning your motives, this does seem to be a case of the man being found guilty by those who are not following the due process and are not those in a positon to determine his guilt. Tough justice.

[Jim Nugent]

From Jim Coleman's account, he saw the entire sequence of events, from up close.  He saw Tiger's drive land and hop forward.  That would seem to make embedding close to impossible.  He saw everyone who approached the ball, and in his opinion there was no chance it got stepped on.  He saw Tiger pick up the ball before the official even saw it, then get the approval, and proceed to drop it. 

Again, maybe there's more to it.  But it's easy for me to see why Jim thinks he saw a rules violation; and why the announcers questioned it as well.  Not a whole lot could have taken place that he didn't see. 

He expressed his biases in the very first sentence.  He said he thinks he saw Tiger cheat.  I think it sounds real likely, and would like to learn if there's more to the story. 

All you who seem aghast that Jim would question Tiger: do any of you grant it's possible Tiger broke a rule?  If so, isn't finding the truth more important than critiquing the eye witness' syntax? 

If not, what do you make of what Jim saw?  Is he lying?  Did his eyes betray him? 

[Jim Nugent]

Brian, doesn't the eyewitness' first-hand, up-close account make you curious enough to find out what happened? 

I'm sure there is no libel. 

[Sean Leary]

From Jim Coleman's account, he saw the entire sequence of events, from up close.  He saw Tiger's drive land and hop forward.  That would seem to make embedding close to impossible.  He saw everyone who approached the ball, and in his opinion there was no chance it got stepped on.  He saw Tiger pick up the ball before the official even saw it, then get the approval, and proceed to drop it. 

Again, maybe there's more to it.  But it's easy for me to see why Jim thinks he saw a rules violation; and why the announcers questioned it as well.  Not a whole lot could have taken place that he didn't see. 

He expressed his biases in the very first sentence.  He said he thinks he saw Tiger cheat.  I think it sounds real likely, and would like to learn if there's more to the story. 

All you who seem aghast that Jim would question Tiger: do any of you grant it's possible Tiger broke a rule?  If so, isn't finding the truth more important than critiquing the eye witness' syntax? 

If not, what do you make of what Jim saw?  Is he lying?  Did his eyes betray him? 

Did you actually read what Jim wrote? Read it again. He waited until the official was there before he picked it up.

Is it possible he cheated? Sure. It's also possible that Phil or any other player cheated somewhere in the round.  Likely? No. Possible, sure.

[Patrick_Mucci]

apparently feeling smug about his golfers' elbow as some sort of poetic justice isn't sufficient.  Pouring salt in the wound is the obvious next step.  Perhaps someone clever can come up with a virtual burning in effigy...My mom, who knows absolutely nothing about golf and has never touched a club outside of a miniature golf course, stopped by yesterday while I had the Open on.  She immediately started rooting vociferously against Tiger for his indiscretions.  Frankly I was shocked at the extent of her rancor against a guy she'd never met playing a sport she doesn't follow or partake in.  All the Tiger haters here are simply members of the same tribe cloaked in the sheep's clothing of knowledgeable and experienced golfers.  

I really don't understand this.  We have an eyewitness report, from ten yards away, of what could be a rules violation.  The announcers immediately seized on it as well.  

Eyewitness reports are often inaccurate.

Wouldn't it be best to get ALL the FACTS before drawing conclusions.

The player himself showed an ignorance of the rules recently (Masters) and would have been DQ'd except for a spotter on TV and the officials' incompetence.  

So did the rest of the golfing universe.
And the circumstances were entirely different and extraordinarily unique.[/size]

How is it unreasonable -- an example of 'haters' -- to want to know what happened?  

If you want to know what happened, you acquire ALL OF THE FACTS FIRST.
You don't jump to conclusions based on one individuals limited knowledge of what occurred

[Jim Nugent]

Wouldn't it be best to get ALL the FACTS before drawing conclusions.

Exactly what I'm asking for.  All the facts.  A number of posters in this thread don't seem to want to get any facts, though.  It's a total non-issue to them. 

[Sean Leary]

Wouldn't it be best to get ALL the FACTS before drawing conclusions.

Exactly what I'm asking for.  All the facts.  A number of posters in this thread don't seem to want to get any facts, though.  It's a total non-issue to them. 

He leaned over, made no attempt to investigate whether the ball had pierced the ground, and called for an official.  When one came over, he picked the ball up, looked to the official for confirmation, and took a drop.

That's as close to a fact as I can find on this thread...

[Greg Tallman]

apparently feeling smug about his golfers' elbow as some sort of poetic justice isn't sufficient.  Pouring salt in the wound is the obvious next step.  Perhaps someone clever can come up with a virtual burning in effigy...My mom, who knows absolutely nothing about golf and has never touched a club outside of a miniature golf course, stopped by yesterday while I had the Open on.  She immediately started rooting vociferously against Tiger for his indiscretions.  Frankly I was shocked at the extent of her rancor against a guy she'd never met playing a sport she doesn't follow or partake in.  All the Tiger haters here are simply members of the same tribe cloaked in the sheep's clothing of knowledgeable and experienced golfers.  

I really don't understand this.  We have an eyewitness report, from ten yards away, of what could be a rules violation.  The announcers immediately seized on it as well.  The player himself showed an ignorance of the rules recently (Masters) and would have been DQ'd except for a spotter on TV and the officials' incompetence.   

How is it unreasonable -- an example of 'haters' -- to want to know what happened? 

Jim,

There's nothing wrong with wanting to know what happened.  It's the presumption of guilt, calling him a cheat for having a ruling go his way and instant questioning of his on-course integrity without any concrete basis which is wrong.  Some people simply won't be happy until he's shining shoes in the locker room at Merion.

Clever and I fear you are on the money here. Sad.

[Pete Blaisdell]

   I read some of these posts and I shake my head.

   I've officiated this great game for 37 years and I've made rulings for Tiger and many of the great players as well as the 7-12 year old Juniors---all levels . To say that TW cheats on the golf course is absolutly ludicrous. I KNOW when a player cheats, I can SMELL a cheat.I've caught cheats. I've had cheats banned. I've taken cheats off the course.

   I could talk about this subject for hours but it's Open Sunday and it's Father's Day.

   If anyone wants to start a thread on cheating, be my guest and I'll get into it with all comers.

   If anyone thinks that TW is a cheat, you simply don't know what the hell you're talking about.

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