US Open sites--west of the Mississippi

[Jim Nelson]

Watching the coverage of the US Open on the Golf Channel, I started thinking about how many courses in the West can handle a US Open.  There are so many obvious benefits to holding the tournament in the West that it is surprising it is not done more often.  Dependable weather in June is just one.  Another is the prime time finish on Sunday.  I am sure the USGA is in full crisis mode with the weather looking iffy thru Friday.  Will they really have to use a couple of holes on the West Course?  So, with only two of the next 8 venues out west, this is what we have to look forward to most years.  Questions.  What courses could be added to the West Coast rota?  Should we have more of a rota system?  If so, which courses should be the standard, which the alternates?  Do courses really want the Open?

ps.  I looked for another thread on this, couldn't find it, but if there is one, please direct us there.

[Tom_Doak]

You're really only talking about California and maybe Washington and Oregon.  The weather in Denver in the summer is just as iffy as back east, because of thunderstorms.  Texas and Oklahoma are not good options in June, either, for reasons that have been amply apparent on the front pages of the newspapers lately.

[Kevin Stark]

Washington and Oregon are pretty iffy too in June. Many years summer in Seattle starts right around the time the fireworks are over on July 4th. The USGA is taking a big gamble on the weather with Chambers Bay. Weather-wise, it would make an outstanding place to hold the PGA as the weather is almost always flawless in August.

For the U.S. Open, you need a world-class golf course near a big city with a ton of room for spectators, corporate tents, and so forth. On the west coast, that's pretty much limited to Olympic, Pebble Beach, and Torrey Pines. Pebble Beach is a bit of an exception in terms of its remoteness but, well, it's Pebble Beach.

I'm not sure what they're thinking with Erin Hills. As a business decision, that's just bizarre. It's a long way from anything.

[Ted Sturges]

The guys on the golf channel were discussing this topic last night.  They brought up "Bandon Dunes", and said that one of the courses there could be a great venue for the Open.  My vote from that family of courses would be Pacific Dunes.  Other than the lodging/logistical challenges, is the course "big" enough for the tour pros?  Tom, do you believe PD could handle this event?

TS

[Kevin Stark]

Available space would certainly not be the issue at Bandon. Finding 50K people to show up there would most certainly be. There isn't anywhere close to the hotel space, restaurants, event space, etc. in Bandon just for the competitors, media, USGA people, and corporate people. It really needs to be in a big city. Pebble and Pinehurst are exceptions and Pinehurst is a big logistical stretch.

[Rick Shefchik]

Available space would certainly not be the issue at Bandon. Finding 50K people to show up there would most certainly be. There isn't anywhere close to the hotel space, restaurants, event space, etc. in Bandon just for the competitors, media, USGA people, and corporate people. It really needs to be in a big city. Pebble and Pinehurst are exceptions and Pinehurst is a big logistical stretch.

This is certainly true. From a logistical standpoint, I can't think of a worse location than Bandon Dunes for America's biggest tournament.

But that wasn't the original intent of the U.S. Open. It was to identify the game's best players, while moving the tournament to various locations that provided the most thorough examination. I don't think there's anything in the USGA bylaws that requires them to milk top dollar out of its venues. They've already broken precedent by going to Bethpage Black because it was public. How about going to Bandon -- or Sand Hills -- because it's great? 

[Ted Sturges]

PGA Championship was held in Kohler, WI.  Not exactly a metropolis.

TS

[Tom_Doak]

I would love to see the Open in Bandon but it is not going to happen in my lifetime (or 1,000 more).  It is just too remote.  Bottom line, there's more money in a ten-mile radius of Pebble Beach than within a hundred-mile radius of Bandon.  That's the only logistical problem, but golf tournaments are all about the money.  It may not be in the U.S.G.A.'s bylaws, but it is in the genetics of the guys who run the event.  They lose money on eleven tournaments a year so they try to make a lot of money on the one they can sell.

They could easily host the Open at Riviera, but they are highly unlikely to go to a club that's privately owned [and owned by overseas interests at that].  They could easily host the Open at L.A.C.C. if they wanted to.  They could just rotate the event around all of Donald Trump's courses if they wanted to.

[Jonathan Webb]

Erin Hills is pretty close to Madison, Milwaukee, and Chicago is a little over 2+ hours.

I think everyone will be surprised by the amount of future US Opens Erin Hills will host.

[Kevin Stark]

PGA Championship was held in Kohler, WI.  Not exactly a metropolis.

TS

Kohler and Kiawah were both logistical nightmares. The USGA seems to understand that problem more than the PGA, though perhaps not with the upcoming Erin Hills event.

Available space would certainly not be the issue at Bandon. Finding 50K people to show up there would most certainly be. There isn't anywhere close to the hotel space, restaurants, event space, etc. in Bandon just for the competitors, media, USGA people, and corporate people. It really needs to be in a big city. Pebble and Pinehurst are exceptions and Pinehurst is a big logistical stretch.

This is certainly true. From a logistical standpoint, I can't think of a worse location than Bandon Dunes for America's biggest tournament.

But that wasn't the original intent of the U.S. Open. It was to identify the game's best players, while moving the tournament to various locations that provided the most thorough examination. I don't think there's anything in the USGA bylaws that requires them to milk top dollar out of its venues. They've already broken precedent by going to Bethpage Black because it was public. How about going to Bandon -- or Sand Hills -- because it's great?  

Have you been to the U.S. Open recently? It's all about the money. ("Not that there's anything wrong with that!" -- Jerry Seinfeld)

[Pete Lavallee]

On the Golf Channel last night David Fay was asked that same question. His only solid pick was Riviera. When asked about Bandon he wondered how you could get 50,000 people to show up. He did say it would be like picking your favorite ice cream at B&R, which course would you pick there to hold the Open on!

[Rick Shefchik]

PGA Championship was held in Kohler, WI.  Not exactly a metropolis.

TS

Kohler and Kiawah were both logistical nightmares. The USGA seems to understand that problem more than the PGA, though perhaps not with the upcoming Erin Hills event.

Available space would certainly not be the issue at Bandon. Finding 50K people to show up there would most certainly be. There isn't anywhere close to the hotel space, restaurants, event space, etc. in Bandon just for the competitors, media, USGA people, and corporate people. It really needs to be in a big city. Pebble and Pinehurst are exceptions and Pinehurst is a big logistical stretch.

This is certainly true. From a logistical standpoint, I can't think of a worse location than Bandon Dunes for America's biggest tournament.

But that wasn't the original intent of the U.S. Open. It was to identify the game's best players, while moving the tournament to various locations that provided the most thorough examination. I don't think there's anything in the USGA bylaws that requires them to milk top dollar out of its venues. They've already broken precedent by going to Bethpage Black because it was public. How about going to Bandon -- or Sand Hills -- because it's great?  

Have you been to the U.S. Open recently? It's all about the money. ("Not that there's anything wrong with that!" -- Jerry Seinfeld)

Yes, Kevin, I've been to the U.S. Open. My first one was in 1970 -- it was all about the money even then. I'm just saying that once every ten years it wouldn't bankrupt the organization to try something for the sake of quality instead of money. Hell, they love to think out of the box when it comes to U.S. Open pairings. How about sites?

[Jim Nugent]

Could Pacific Dunes hold the Open without significant changes to the course?  I remember one of the top women's amateur events there several years back -- maybe the Curtis Cup?  IIRC they scored real low. 

[Matthew Petersen]

Torrey Pines is no architectural marvel, but it's a great location, with ample room, and produced a wonderful Open 5 years ago. Given that it's also a muni, I think there's a good chance the USGA goes back there.

Realistically, although I'm a WC guy and would love to see more tournaments out here overall, the West is pretty well represented in the Open given the options out here. Pebble gets an Open every decade. In recent years we've also had Olympic, Torrey Pines, and Chambers Bay is on the schedule.

I would say there's a good chance that 2021 or 2022 will be back in California somewhere ... either Torrey or Olympic, most likely, but Riviera or LACC also seem like possibilities.

Edit. It's really the PGA that should be out here more often. Since Sahalee in 1998, Tulsa is the farthest west that event has come. That's a shame. Colorado still may have concerns, but the thunderstorms are generally less common in August than earlier in the summer. Weather is great in the Northwest then. And all up and down the Cali coast is wonderful, as well.

Western PGAs in the stroke play era:
98, Sahalee
95, Riviera
85, Cherry Hills
83, Riviera
77, Pebble Beach
67, Columbine (Denver)

That's just a shame

[Jim Nelson]

Good point about the PGA. They really don't use the west coast.  Regarding remote sites, doesn't Turnberry have similar problems with lack of facilities, roads etc. seems I heard the R&A basically conceded that it would have reduced attendance but that the course warranted an Open. I know the west is much bigger, but couldn't the usga also periodically make this concession.  Do not underestimate the tv revenue in prime time. 

[Matthew Petersen]

Good point about the PGA. They really don't use the west coast.  Regarding remote sites, doesn't Turnberry have similar problems with lack of facilities, roads etc. seems I heard the R&A basically conceded that it would have reduced attendance but that the course warranted an Open. I know the west is much bigger, but couldn't the usga also periodically make this concession.  Do not underestimate the tv revenue in prime time. 

I hope it's something they will consider. They have made a point that this is the logic behind holding the Open at Merion this year. They make enough from the other 9 Opens they'll hold this decade that making less, or even taking a loss, on this one is acceptable.

With that said, I doubt Bandon could hold an Open, if the USGA was willing to take a bath on it just for the experience. Forget spectators, could the town accommodate even all the media and other infrastructure that comes along with such an event? Seems unlikely to me, but the USGA will cut down on spectators long before they cut down media access, which is where the real money is.

[Pete_Pittock]

Washington and Oregon are pretty iffy too in June. Many years summer in Seattle starts right around the time the fireworks are over on July 4th. The USGA is taking a big gamble on the weather with Chambers Bay. Weather-wise, it would make an outstanding place to hold the PGA as the weather is almost always flawless in August.

For the U.S. Open, you need a world-class golf course near a big city with a ton of room for spectators, corporate tents, and so forth. On the west coast, that's pretty much limited to Olympic, Pebble Beach, and Torrey Pines. Pebble Beach is a bit of an exception in terms of its remoteness but, well, it's Pebble Beach.

I'm not sure what they're thinking with Erin Hills. As a business decision, that's just bizarre. It's a long way from anything.

Iffy only if you're looking for perfect weather. Portland gets an average of 1.5" total in June. Occasional lightniong but very few severe storms.
Our problem is not enough course. But if the USGA's position is looking at a five year financial average, Pumpkin Ridge is in the equaltion.

[Phil McDade]

PGA Championship was held in Kohler, WI.  Not exactly a metropolis.

TS

Kohler and Kiawah were both logistical nightmares. The USGA seems to understand that problem more than the PGA, though perhaps not with the upcoming Erin Hills event.

Kevin:

What, exactly, were the logistical nightmares at Kohler? How is the remoteness of Erin Hills different than the remoteness of, say, Shinnecock Hills?

[Kevin Stark]

PGA Championship was held in Kohler, WI.  Not exactly a metropolis.

TS

Kohler and Kiawah were both logistical nightmares. The USGA seems to understand that problem more than the PGA, though perhaps not with the upcoming Erin Hills event.

Kevin:

What, exactly, were the logistical nightmares at Kohler? How is the remoteness of Erin Hills different than the remoteness of, say, Shinnecock Hills?

Shinnecock has access to the Long Island Railroad, which provides decent access to the facilities, hotels, and so forth of Nassau and Suffolk Counties. It is a bit of a commute from NYC proper, but it's a lifeline for moving a lot of people that Kohler, Kiawah, and Pinehurst simply don't have.

Kohler's problem was mostly around moving the people who were staging, covering, and playing in the event back and forth from where they were staying. They also lacked, from what I hear anyway, quite a bit of event space, restaurants, and so forth that needed something more than a corporate tent. Erin Hills will have that same problem. An event like the U.S. Open needs thousands of hotel rooms and many thousands of square feet of event space. How close are those to Kohler or to Erin Hills?

Washington and Oregon are pretty iffy too in June. Many years summer in Seattle starts right around the time the fireworks are over on July 4th. The USGA is taking a big gamble on the weather with Chambers Bay. Weather-wise, it would make an outstanding place to hold the PGA as the weather is almost always flawless in August.

For the U.S. Open, you need a world-class golf course near a big city with a ton of room for spectators, corporate tents, and so forth. On the west coast, that's pretty much limited to Olympic, Pebble Beach, and Torrey Pines. Pebble Beach is a bit of an exception in terms of its remoteness but, well, it's Pebble Beach.

I'm not sure what they're thinking with Erin Hills. As a business decision, that's just bizarre. It's a long way from anything.

Iffy only if you're looking for perfect weather. Portland gets an average of 1.5" total in June. Occasional lightniong but very few severe storms.
Our problem is not enough course. But if the USGA's position is looking at a five year financial average, Pumpkin Ridge is in the equaltion.

I'm not sure why the USGA passed on Pumpkin Ridge. The US Am they held there was almost certainly an evaluation of whether they could host a U.S. Open. I guess the answer was "no". It seems like a better option than Chambers Bay, having been to both.

I lived in Seattle for three years. You are correct that the possibilities of washouts like Merion and Bethpage are minimal. The amount of rain in June isn't the concern so much as the cool, damp weather limiting the ability of a golf course to emerge from winter. Course conditions in that part of the world can be quite crummy when the winter gloom lingers into May and June, wouldn't you agree?

[Richard Choi]

Only if you are talking about courses like Pumpkin...

Chambers was running firm and fast in March. The course condition is not going to be a factor here like it is at Merion.

[Kevin Stark]

Richard --

You're closer to it than I am. How will the fescue greens fare at Chambers Bay if there is an extended winter that year? The times that I've been to Chambers Bay were in August and September...obviously optimal weather conditions then.

I will always remember the PGA at Sahalee. The only two days of cloud cover that entire August were on Saturday and Sunday of the PGA. Go figure.

[Phil McDade]

Kevin:

Just curious -- have you been to either Whistling Straits or Erin Hills? Did you attend either of the PGAs at WStraits?

[Kevin Stark]

I have been to Whistling Straits. I have not been to Erin Hills but I have spent time in the area long before it was built. I was not at either PGA no, though I know plenty of people who were. Commuting in for one day from Milwaukee wasn't the issue. It was commuting in for seven days, trying to get tens of thousands of people in and out of that site on roads that aren't designed for it, and trying to have corporate events fifty miles away from the site of the event.

I submit this as evidence: http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2010/8/18/another-pga-question-who-wants-to-return-to-whistling-strait.html

Again, the discussion is not about the architecture merit of the course. It's about whether the facility can stage a major sporting event. Whether we like it or not, the ability to move lots of people in and out of the venue, corporate tent space, hotels, restaurants, corporate meeting space, and so forth plays a major part. The course being a brutal test for pros is probably second on the list, with the architectural merit somewhere far down the list.

[Richard Choi]

Kevin, the main problem CB is having right now is the pos infestation. I am not sure what can be done about it. Trying to address this issue is causing bald spots. They are growing a ton of sod, so my guess is if push comes to shove, they will resod some greens next year. But other than that, fescue greens play just fine when mowed and rolled

[Kevin Stark]

It is poa annua heaven out there.

Any word on how they will get people in and out of the golf course at CB? The streets leading into there seem too narrow to be running shuttle buses, especially with all of those roundabouts. Will they be able to bring people in via rail or ferry on the coastline?