Wilshire in LA

[mark chalfant]

Great routing, variety and  bunkering  on a 6500 yarder  nestled into 109 elegant acres,  remarkable use of winding stream and barrancas.  Worth playing !

[Mark Saltzman]

Wilshire = Huge bingo.  A very fun golf course.

[David Ober]

Completely agree. Just played there in "The Macbeth." Really fun and challenging short golf course.

[Mark McKeever]

Looks awesome!  Its certainly high on my list if Im in the area.

MM

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

I raved about the course when I played it last October.

The use of that stream is simply brilliant, especially when you consider the length by which it traverses the property.

It's probably the greatest use of a single stream in all of golf.

I can't think of one better, including Rae's Creek, which is fabulous as well.

[DMoriarty]

As good as the use of the creek bed is now, it used to be even better . . .

[Alex Miller]

Mark S and David O,

Had they extended the fairway out to the left on 14 when you played it? Just curious as it looked like they would and doing so would enhance what's already a very good par 5.

[Mark Saltzman]

Alex, as in out to the creek on the left? If so, no, I don't think so.

[Mark McKeever]

As good as the use of the creek bed is now, it used to be even better . . .

I love seeing these old pictures of the creekbed going right up to the putting surface.  Awesome!!

Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

The old pictures are extremely interesting.

I wonder how they prevented the erosion of the banks and putting surface ?

The use of that creek, systemically, throughout the golf course is pure genius

Does anyone have photos of other courses by Macbeth ?

[Mark McKeever]

Agreed Pat!  I dont know how these surfaces held up during a flash flood.  I would imagine today one would want to build a sturdy barrier to keep the green safe.

Mark

[DMoriarty]

As for erosion control, the course had been around for over a decade at the time those photos were taken (1931) so maybe the grass growing on some of the steep banks helped. The real test though probably did not come until February 1938, though, when disastrous flash flooding ravaged LA, killed over 100 people, wiped out buildings and neighborhoods, and decimated the golf courses.   Not sure how Wilshire fared but most golf courses did not fare well.

Pat,

MacBeth was businessman (road construction, I think) and a quality amateur golfer and is said to have a hand in the creation or renovation of various Southern California courses, but it is tough to get a handle on for just what exactly he was responsible.  For example he is said to have had a role in the creation of Annandale, but Annandale had been there long before MacBeth arrived, and there are others such as Bell and Watson (and many since) who also are said to have had a hand. Macbeth was also a member at LACC when the club were getting established at their current location, but again I don't know what if anything he did there.   Tommy or perhaps one of the other West Coast guys could probably give you a better idea of just what exactly he did.  

But here are a few interesting tidbits about Macbeth nonetheless

-  Before moving West he was one of the top golfers at a (soon to be) prominent club during a time period when that club was extensively modifying its course to make it more difficult by adding very severe but strategic hazards.  Given Macbeth's extensive previous experience in the UK (and elsewhere) and his construction knowledge, I've always wondered whether this period was a learning experience or a teaching experience for Macbeth.  Or it could have been both or neither.  Anyway, care to try and guess the club?  

 - Macbeth was a top notch competitive Amateur before he settled in the US, and apparently a world traveler. Here is a photo from the British Golf Illustrated from the 1902 India Open.  Macbeth beat out two time  US Amateur Champion HJ Whigham, but lost to A.F. Simpson, a top Scottish Amateur who would be runner up in the 1926 British Am.  (Simpson had car troubles and was an hour late, but Jess Sweetzer, who eventually won 6 and 5, refused to accept the forfeit by locking himself in the locker room until Simpson arrived.

 

 After eventually settling in Southern California, Macbeth remained a top competitive Amateur in the West for decades.

[Joel_Stewart]

There is a reason why the 18th green and creek bed were NOT restored by Kyle Phillips two years ago but for the life of me I can't remember why.  I believe that is still on the drawing boards but have since been told it's on the back burner.  To me it's such a significant feature it would have been one of the first things to be restored.

Last year they discovered a number of different types of grasses on the course and decided to regrass the fairways.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

Thanks

I loved Wilshire.

It's the type of course you could play every day and never tire of it.

The use of that creek is so incredibly creative.

I doubt that the environmentalists would allow "that" course to be built today.

What a fun track

[jonathan_becker]

Saltzman,

After looking at your shots of the par 3s, I had completely opposite hole locations during my round.  Based on the lines of play from those tees, the holes can have vastly different yardages and playing angles on a day to day basis.  Pretty cool.

[Mark Saltzman]

DP, I was there the day before the Macbeth Invitational. I suspect the super was trying to give the players a false sense of comfort before he hammered them with brutal pins in the tourney!

[David Ober]

DP, I was there the day before the Macbeth Invitational. I suspect the super was trying to give the players a false sense of comfort before he hammered them with brutal pins in the tourney!

The pins for the Macbeth are always tough. And the greens were very, very firm all three days, and especially on the final day.

[Kevin Pallier]

Great routing, variety and  bunkering  on a 6500 yarder  nestled into 109 elegant acres,  remarkable use of winding stream and barrancas.  Worth playing !

Mark

Did you play it before Philips work ? (and others can chime in here) How has Philips work been received ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kevin,

I never played the course prior to the work, but find the course to be very sporty.

Some could criticize some of the bunkers as being too narrow

[Patrice Boissonnas]

I walked Wilshire last month and was really impressed by the course. Great smart architecture, lot's of fun obviously, I really wish I had played it (but my injured back dictated otherwise).
Here are some elements I collected which might be of interest :
The barranca was destroyed by the 1938 flood and was rebuilt with concrete just like LA River.
Originally you could play from within the barranca the bottom of which was naturally sandy. It was a tough hazard but fair.
Now it's always watered, the main reason being the hills have been massively urbanized and reclaimed water runs down and feeds into the so called barranca. Being a full time water hazard, it plays totally differently but there is nothing you can do about it. One sad consequence is the high grass around the 18th green to prevent balls from running into the water. A major change from the original design...
I also think that the barranca only affected some holes like 16 and 18. There is also a creek that runs across the course especially on the front 9. To my understanding this was always a water creek, different from the barranca. Not 100% sure though. Can anyone confirm?
When I was there, I was told MacBeth first created simple shaped bunkers. He then met MacKenzie and redesigned his bunkers in a more sophisticated style. It is this style that the club and Philips chose to restore.
On top of that, they are cutting a lot of trees. If you go there now you can see the difference between the back 9 where the job has already been done and the front 9. The back 9 has also been reseeded and there is much more playing surface around the greens. The front 9 is expecting the same fate.

[Sean_Tully]

David-
He was a member at Oakmont before coming out West. If you look at some early photos of Wilshire one can make out furrowed bunkers.

Tully

[DMoriarty]

Sean. That's the club to which I was referring.   Oakmont was packed with quality players pre-1910 with Fownes, Eben Byers, Macbeth, and George Ormiston.  I think both Macbeth and Ormiston grew up playing overseas both were later involved in designing golf courses.

Here a couple photos of the 4th, which also utilized the barranca and was sort of like a half shifted biarritz.





I wish I had a photo handy of the third, which also made terrific use of the barranca around a caped green.

 Here is one more of the 18th

[Randy St John]

Okay, so here is some clarification:

The barranca runs all the way from 12 through to 7 on the southernmost part of the course. It is in play or part of the hole at a minimum on 1,3,4,5,6,8,11,12,14,16,17 and 18.  The cement bottomed parts were more of “retainage” planning than anything else many years ago and well after the great floods.  Long term, we would of course like to return to the look and feel of the old 1920 and 30’s photos, particularly around 16 and 18.  This is something Kyle feels is unfinished at this point.  In 2012, the entire back 9 was turfed in hybrid Bermuda.

In a few weeks, we will close the front 9 to sand cap all the tees and then sod all fairways and tees in the same hybrid Bermuda as last year.  Significant tree removal will also take place on the front side.  100 trees came down on the back, more will come down on the front.  All tree decisions are based on a agronomic, safety and aesthetic plan.

Forward tees are being added on most holes.  It is an amazing walking, fun, sporty old course with great greens that, this time of year, consistently run 11.5 -12.5. 

Randy St. John CCM
General Manager/COO
Wilshire Country Club

[Patrick_Mucci]

Okay, so here is some clarification:

The barranca runs all the way from 12 through to 7 on the southernmost part of the course.

It is in play or part of the hole at a minimum on 1,3,4,5,6,8,11,12,14,16,17 and 18. 
The cement bottomed parts were more of “retainage” planning than anything else many years ago and well after the great floods. 
The use of that creek is pure genius, unlike any creek I've ever seen.
When you consider that the creek influences 12 out of 18 holes, and in unique ways, it's really remarkable.
The best use of a single water feature that I've ever seen.
And, Macbeth located and designed those holes to maximize the influence of the creek.
Pure genius.

Long term, we would of course like to return to the look and feel of the old 1920 and 30’s photos, particularly around 16 and 18. 
That would be great


This is something Kyle feels is unfinished at this point.  In 2012, the entire back 9 was turfed in hybrid Bermuda.

In a few weeks, we will close the front 9 to sand cap all the tees and then sod all fairways and tees in the same hybrid Bermuda as last year. 

Significant tree removal will also take place on the front side. 

The front definitely needs tree removal

100 trees came down on the back, more will come down on the front. 
All tree decisions are based on a agronomic, safety and aesthetic plan.

Even on # 3 ?
Playability seems to have been compromised by those trees on the right

Why are you sodding the fairways ?

Why not sprig them ?

Won't sodding cost multiples of sprigging ?

Also, won't sodding take years of TLC to achieve consistent fairway lies ?

Forward tees are being added on most holes. 

It is an amazing walking, fun, sporty old course with great greens that, this time of year, consistently run 11.5 -12.5. 

It was the kind of course you could play every day, and not tire of it.

I thought some of the bunkers may have been configured a little too narrow, but, that's one of your primary lines of defense.

It's just a fun course with a lot of variety.

Randy St. John CCM
General Manager/COO
Wilshire Country Club

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

the big question for the front 9 is if there is any plan for restoring  the saddle that ran from left to right down the middle of the 3rd green. this was once one of the coolist and most testy greens in SoCal, but has been rebuilt worse each time a  few times since the early 80's.  I was fortunate to play Wilshire regularly from 1977-1982 because it was my high school's home course with several teamates who were members.