Pebble Beach Stinks

[Bill_McBride]

Here is my first Pebble Beach experience:

As I strolled up to the first tee I saw my caddy emptying my light weight bag and loading my stuff into HIS light weight bag... I asked him not to do that because while I don't carry much, I am a little fussy about where things are in my bag. He said he had to do this because he has a bad back... Now this guy was about 5' 10" and built like a brick shithouse. Clearly a big weight lifter... I pointed out that my Sun Mountain bag is probably the lightest bag he will ever carry, but he refused. So I had to shift my gloves, tees, rainshirt, balls, etc. into his bag...I had steam coming out of my ears as I hit my first tee shot.

Upon reflection, I wish I had ran into the pro shop and bought a couple of dozen logo balls...

I paid the guy the flat minimum but I wish I had fired him on the spot.

Bill, a Cypress Point caddy switched out my equally light bag and managed to lose a favorite putter at the end of the round.   Nobody knew nothin.'

What is this, a California thing? Who in God's name decided that a caddy can do anything except put the player's bag on his shoulder and carry it Is there a California Caddies Union? Geeze...

I think the caddies work both courses depending on demand, so it's the same guys doing this BS.

[cary lichtenstein]

I have played Pebble over 100 times in my life, 23 years in a row, every Oct 15th for a week after the textile market in the fall. I stopped going in 1993 when we rented a home in Florida as snow birds.

It is my favorite course in the world.

What you need to do is learn what to do, when to play it, etc.

Here's the deal. Always tee off at 8 am. It's a 4:30 hour round at that time. Find a good loop and book him a year in advance and let them read the greens because the greens are impossible to read without help.

Eat lunch at the 19th overlooking the 18th green. Play Spyglass in the afternoon in carts.

Find out who belongs to Cypress and beg them to let you play. I love that course too.

Eat dinner in the bar at Pebble, great burgers. Go to sleep early.

Repeat the next day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Andy Troeger]

If rating golf courses is subjective, then rating the experience is 10x more subjective. So many variables.

I played Pebble first out, walked and carried in 3h 45 min. Other than my foursome, there was nobody else around. Absolutely wonderful! I can understand how playing later would lead to a different feeling, 5 or 6 hour rounds are rough. I experienced that at Spanish Bay--which was just fine given the quality of the experience at Pebble (and Spyglass where I was also first out).

[ed_getka]

There are certainly scenarios that could make a round at Pebble stink. Fortunately I didn't experience them 18 years ago (holy crap time sure flies!) when I played there with my brother. At that time $450 covered us both and I swallowed hard when I handed the money over and then prayed that I would have a decent round. I had walked Pebble in 1992 when I was a volunteer at the US Open. After 3 holes (wasn't even to the water yet) I had decided I would pay whatever it took to play there once in my life, but the reality of handing over that much money for a round of golf was a little unnerving.
    We were blessed to be out 2nd group. 1st group was two excellent golfers in a cart. Never saw them again. 3rd group were 4 tourist golfers and we never saw them again after we teed off. We had a private course experience with a slight breeze and sunny skies. Could not have asked for more.
    I had spent a year trying to get a tee time for us, but couldn't do it without staying at one of their properties. Funny thing back then was you could pay $400/night at the Lodge and then the golf was ONLY $165. I told the lady that paying $400 to save $60 didn't really work for me. After a year of calling I wasn't able to get a tee time. The week before we were to play I was able to get a guy in the pro shop on the phone and explained the situation and he said to be there when they opened the doors at 6am and he would get us out.
    Parred #8 from the bunker, birdied #13 and had a great day with my brother (who took a great picture of me splashing out of the bunker on #8).
    Pebble is not my favorite course, but I was fortunate to have an awesome experience there.

[Matthew Petersen]

Is the price just beyond piggish or can some make a rationalization for it?

Supply and demand has always been the rationalization.

As far as I am concerned, Pebble is awesome. Only thing overrated there is the Tap Room....

That's it. The tee sheet is never not full and the hotels are, too.

[Sam Morrow]

This is a very interesting thread, there are some people saying that Pebble discourages walking and others saying it discourages riding. I'm curious how these opinions have been formed.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Obviously I was trying to stir the pot a bit with the title of this thread.   Clearly a great day can be had at Pebble Beach, especially with a caddy and an early time.   I just find it very sad that for the majority of people who play Pebble, its not a golf experience, but a Pebble experience, and it doesn't seem that it is a priority for the Pebble owners to improve that experience.   Whenever the retort to legitimate hospitality criticism is, "hey its always full, so who cares", that is usually followed by the venue in question not being full anymore.

[Joel_Stewart]

Pebble seems to be jammed all the time but I wonder if Spanish Bay is?

I saw this special today offering a free round at Spanish Bay.

Book one night at The Inn or The Lodge at reduced nightly room rates and receive a $50 dining credit per night valid at our acclaimed restaurants.
– plus –
Book one round of golf on Pebble Beach Golf Links, Spyglass Hill or The Links at Spanish Bay during your stay and enjoy a free round of golf on The Links at Spanish Bay.
Summer Celebrations Just Got Sweeter!
Father's Day: June 14-18, 2013
Fourth of July: July 2-6, 2013
Rates at The Inn start at $370++ and rates at The Lodge start at $450++*

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill McBride,

I had the caddies at CPC do the same switch to me.

It's been going on for decades and as guests we don't put up much resistance.

The club has to endorse the practice as I can't imagine the caddies taking it upon themselves to make guests switch bags.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill McBride,

I had the caddies at CPC do the same switch to me.

It's been going on for decades and as guests we don't put up much resistance.

The club has to endorse the practice as I can't imagine the caddies taking it upon themselves to make guests switch bags.

Agreed, as guests we don't complain.  I didn't even when a favored putter turned up missing.   

[Adam Clayman]

Bill McBride,

I had the caddies at CPC do the same switch to me.

It's been going on for decades and as guests we don't put up much resistance.

The club has to endorse the practice as I can't imagine the caddies taking it upon themselves to make guests switch bags.

Patrick,
 If you were to ignore your caddies first piece of advice, you'd probably be in for a long day. Huh?

 The reasons for changing bags are many, but mainly it's important to be balanced, because it's physically very hard on the body. So, It's only necessary for double baggers.

The caddie bags have a single shoulder strap, and are already fitted to the specific caddie, while the individual bags people show up with usually have the dbl shoulder strap, fitted to them. 

If someone has a problem with it, they can decline the service, just as any caddie can refuse any loop.

Then there's the story about the guy who left his dive weights in golf bag on his way back from Hawaii...

[Bob_Huntley]

Adam,

I think it must be difficult to have one player using a bag with stands and the other without.

Bob

[Bill Brightly]

Bill McBride,

I had the caddies at CPC do the same switch to me.

It's been going on for decades and as guests we don't put up much resistance.

The club has to endorse the practice as I can't imagine the caddies taking it upon themselves to make guests switch bags.

Patrick,
 If you were to ignore your caddies first piece of advice, you'd probably be in for a long day. Huh?

 The reasons for changing bags are many, but mainly it's important to be balanced, because it's physically very hard on the body. So, It's only necessary for double baggers.

The caddie bags have a single shoulder strap, and are already fitted to the specific caddie, while the individual bags people show up with usually have the dbl shoulder strap, fitted to them.  

If someone has a problem with it, they can decline the service, just as any caddie can refuse any loop.

Then there's the story about the guy who left his dive weights in golf bag on his way back from Hawaii...

Adam, with all due respect, that is a load of crap. I carried two heavy leather Burton bags for years and would have whooped with joy if I ever got a loop with bags as light as most today... Yes, it helps to be balanced but you can always switch shoulders if one bag is heavier...Pat and I belong to clubs in New Jersey where the caddies simply carry the bag they are handed. Yes, my current bag has a double strap which must be adjusted for caddying, but it is NO BIG DEAL. Caddies don't love double straps, but they deal with it every day.

By the way, the bag I had at Pebble was a single strap bag because my first trip to Pebble pre-dated double straps. Which means the soft California caddies have been getting away with this for years...

The bottom line is this is a ridiculous practice that the management of the clubs should stop immediately. I am stunned that Cypress Point allows their caddies to do this.

Rather than suggesting that the player reject the caddy (a rude thing to do) you should be asking if caddies would stop showing up for work if they had to carry bags like 95% of all the other caddies in the US...

[Bill Brightly]

Bill - totally agree. Talk about the tail wagging the dog. Especially at Cypress! The caddies run the show there too? That does surprise me.

I hear they do this with guests, not the members. But still...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

If you were to ignore your caddies first piece of advice, you'd probably be in for a long day. Huh?

Not really, what, was the caddy going to play my round for me ?

The reasons for changing bags are many, but mainly it's important to be balanced, because it's physically very hard on the body.
So, It's only necessary for double baggers.

When the caddy first approached me and asked me to switch, I inquired, "why"
He said because my bag was too big.
I told him that I used to carry doubles with bags bigger than mine.
That I only carried 14 clubs and 6-9 balls, with no gear inside.

I suspect an element of convenience/laziness on the caddy's part, where the guest is at a distinct disadvantage, and can't object.
And, the caddies know that and take advantage of the situation.

The caddie bags have a single shoulder strap, and are already fitted to the specific caddie, while the individual bags people show up with usually have the dbl shoulder strap, fitted to them.  

I ONLY have "single" strap bags, so that's not why they refused to carry my bag.

It was for their maximum convenience.

Now, if I had a trunk bag, with 17 clubs, 3 dozen balls and wind and rain gear and an umbrella, I could understand their request, but, that wasn't the case.

Bottom line ?

They're spoiled and have the guest at a distinct disadvantage

If someone has a problem with it, they can decline the service, just as any caddie can refuse any loop.

No, they can't.
They're a guest and under the gun.
It's not like they can make a strenuous objection or come back next week.

If a caddy refuses a loop, they should be fired/prohibited from caddying.

These are guests, once in a lifetime strangers that the caddy has never met, not some annoying bozo who shows up 3 times a week.

The Caddy Master and preferably the Pro should make the call, not the caddy.

Then there's the story about the guy who left his dive weights in golf bag on his way back from Hawaii...

Please, spare us the absurd, extreme examples.  
No one would expect a caddy to endure that bag.

[Bill_McBride]

Patrick,

If you were to ignore your caddies first piece of advice, you'd probably be in for a long day. Huh?

Not really, what, was the caddy going to play my round for me ?

The reasons for changing bags are many, but mainly it's important to be balanced, because it's physically very hard on the body.
So, It's only necessary for double baggers.

When the caddy first approached me and asked me to switch, I inquired, "why"
He said because my bag was too big.
I told him that I used to carry doubles with bags bigger than mine.
That I only carried 14 clubs and 6-9 balls, with no gear inside.

I suspect an element of convenience/laziness on the caddy's part, where the guest is at a distinct disadvantage, and can't object.
And, the caddies know that and take advantage of the situation.

The caddie bags have a single shoulder strap, and are already fitted to the specific caddie, while the individual bags people show up with usually have the dbl shoulder strap, fitted to them.  

I ONLY have "single" strap bags, so that's not why they refused to carry my bag.

It was for their maximum convenience.

Now, if I had a trunk bag, with 17 clubs, 3 dozen balls and wind and rain gear and an umbrella, I could understand their request, but, that wasn't the case.

Bottom line ?

They're spoiled and have the guest at a distinct disadvantage

If someone has a problem with it, they can decline the service, just as any caddie can refuse any loop.

No, they can't.
They're a guest and under the gun.
It's not like they can make a strenuous objection or come back next week.

If a caddy refuses a loop, they should be fired/prohibited from caddying.

These are guests, once in a lifetime strangers that the caddy has never met, not some annoying bozo who shows up 3 times a week.

The Caddy Master and preferably the Pro should make the call, not the caddy.

Then there's the story about the guy who left his dive weights in golf bag on his way back from Hawaii...

Please, spare us the absurd, extreme examples.  
No one would expect a caddy to endure that bag.

So did the caddy switch you out or not?

[Adam Clayman]

Bill, Bill, and Pat.

You have your perspectives and I have experience on both sides.

There's a difference between the public and private scenarios. But between Pebble and CPC it is not so much. The caddies are independent contractors, so do have some leverage against doing every thing the Company/Club tells them to do. And because they're independent, each one is different. Each may have different reasons for wanting to swap out your bag. One might even pick yours up and agree to carry it. It's become an SOP and they've been doing it for awhile now, everyday. BTW, The Company facilitates the purchase of those bags. Why? So, their corp of caddies comeback everyday. And why does the caddie buy them? As an investment. Those bags are gonna pay for his mortgage.  But, Seriously, and with all due respect, do people walk into your office and tell you how to do your job?

 I use to carry the old heavy leather bag when I was a kid too. It doesn't come close to doing the job EVERYDAY, on those courses. Some of those "Lazy" caddies get around multiple times a day, too. Mostly they go again because they're needed, not because they're greedy.

The dive weight reference was to illustrate how important controlling, ahead of time, what a professional caddie carries. 

What's wrong with my maximizing my partners connivence?

[Bill Brightly]

Bill, Bill, and Pat.

You have your perspectives and I have experience on both sides.

There's a difference between the public and private scenarios. But between Pebble and CPC it is not so much. The caddies are independent contractors, so do have some leverage against doing every thing the Company/Club tells them to do. And because they're independent, each one is different. Each may have different reasons for wanting to swap out your bag. One might even pick yours up and agree to carry it. It's become an SOP and they've been doing it for awhile now, everyday. BTW, The Company facilitates the purchase of those bags. Why? So, their corp of caddies comeback everyday. And why does the caddie buy them? As an investment. Those bags are gonna pay for his mortgage.  But, Seriously, and with all due respect, do people walk into your office and tell you how to do your job?

 I use to carry the old heavy leather bag when I was a kid too. It doesn't come close to doing the job EVERYDAY, on those courses. Some of those "Lazy" caddies get around multiple times a day, too. Mostly they go again because they're needed, not because they're greedy.

The dive weight reference was to illustrate how important controlling, ahead of time, what a professional caddie carries.  

What's wrong with my maximizing my partners connivence?

Adam. let's not kid anyone. I accept that you once caddied, so you know full well the mentality in all caddie yards: 100% professionalism while looping on the course, and a half-kidding, half- disdainful/smirking/juvenille/smartass attitude about the players when not working. Members know it exists and it is no big deal. But when it comes to changing out one lightweight carry bag for another, the caddy is just jerking around and the caddy master should not allow it. Don't think for a minute that caddies are not just seeing what they can get away with... all us boys do it all the time... Caddies at CPC and Pebble get away with this nonsense that caddies at NGLA, Merion and about a thousand other clubs would not DREAM of doing. Are you telling me that there is an endemic bad back problems in CA? I'll call it California soft.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill, Bill, and Pat.

You have your perspectives and I have experience on both sides.

Mine isn't a "perspective" it's a statement of fact.

I had a bag that I would have no problem carrying, or carrying double.

It was sheer laziness and arrogance on the caddy's part, that the club obviously endorses.

There's a difference between the public and private scenarios. But between Pebble and CPC it is not so much. The caddies are independent contractors, so do have some leverage against doing every thing the Company/Club tells them to do. And because they're independent, each one is different.

Adam, in my limited experience, I don't know of a single club where the caddies aren't independent contractors

But, they still depend upon the caddymaster/pro to get their assignments.



Each may have different reasons for wanting to swap out your bag. One might even pick yours up and agree to carry it. It's become an SOP and they've been doing it for awhile now, everyday. BTW, The Company facilitates the purchase of those bags. Why? So, their corp of caddies comeback everyday. And why does the caddie buy them? As an investment. Those bags are gonna pay for his mortgage.  But, Seriously, and with all due respect, do people walk into your office and tell you how to do your job?

That's both a poor and flawed analogy.
The caddy, as an independent contractor, works for ME.
Not for the club.
I pay him, I direct him.

So, when someone walks into my office, who's a vendor, whom I contract with and pay, they listen to me, as I'm their effective boss.

I use to carry the old heavy leather bag when I was a kid too. It doesn't come close to doing the job EVERYDAY, on those courses. Some of those "Lazy" caddies get around multiple times a day, too. Mostly they go again because they're needed, not because they're greedy.
That's not the issue.
When I caddied, we all hoped we'd get a double loop.
A double loop on Saturday and Sunday made your week.

The dive weight reference was to illustrate how important controlling, ahead of time, what a professional caddie carries.  

I have friends whose bags were obnoxious, with umbrellas on clear days, 17 clubs, dozens of balls, etc.,etc..
And, I'd tell them to lighten up their bags
I had a rule.
You shouldn't ask any caddy to carry a bag that you won't carry for 18 holes
One friend of mine received a bag for his 50th birthday that was so obnoxious that I was embarrassed being seen anywhere near it or him.
I finally bought him another very nice light stand bag.
Unfortunately, he wouldn't use it until recently.

What's wrong with my maximizing my partners connivence?

It's simple,
1  We're not partners
2  I'm paying you for a service, a service for my convenience, not yours.
3  Do your service well and you'll be amply rewared, above the standard fee.
4  I'm completely aware of my bags contents and weight and it's a small light weight bag
5  If the forecast indicates that rain is possible, I want to have rain gear in my bag.

Maybe this is why many clubs in the UK have the caddies carry single ?

[Jason Thurman]

But, Seriously, and with all due respect, do people walk into your office and tell you how to do your job?

They sure as hell did when I worked in service industries. When I was a landscaper, I absolutely adhered to the wishes of the customers whose property I was working on. When I was a cellular telephone customer service representative and someone had an issue laden phone that they liked, I didn't just get to switch them into another model that was more reliable and less work for me but less appealing to them. And when I worked in a restaurant and my customers didn't like the table at which they'd been seated, I always accommodated their requests for a new one.

Even in my current position, I still follow the requests that my boss makes. As far as I'm concerned, if I hire you as my caddie, I'm essentially your boss for 4 hours (or, at Pebble, 6). I'm pretty benevolent about it, but I damn sure expect you to carry MY bag. That's what I hired you to do, after all, and I'm more than happy to do it myself if you can't handle the job.

[Adam Clayman]

Bill, Bill, and Pat.

You have your perspectives and I have experience on both sides.

There's a difference between the public and private scenarios. But between Pebble and CPC it is not so much. The caddies are independent contractors, so do have some leverage against doing every thing the Company/Club tells them to do. And because they're independent, each one is different. Each may have different reasons for wanting to swap out your bag. One might even pick yours up and agree to carry it. It's become an SOP and they've been doing it for awhile now, everyday. BTW, The Company facilitates the purchase of those bags. Why? So, their corp of caddies comeback everyday. And why does the caddie buy them? As an investment. Those bags are gonna pay for his mortgage.  But, Seriously, and with all due respect, do people walk into your office and tell you how to do your job?

 I use to carry the old heavy leather bag when I was a kid too. It doesn't come close to doing the job EVERYDAY, on those courses. Some of those "Lazy" caddies get around multiple times a day, too. Mostly they go again because they're needed, not because they're greedy.

The dive weight reference was to illustrate how important controlling, ahead of time, what a professional caddie carries.  

What's wrong with my maximizing my partners connivence?

Adam. let's not kid anyone. I accept that you once caddied, so you know full well the mentality in all caddie yards: 100% professionalism while looping on the course, and a half-kidding, half- disdainful/smirking/juvenille/smartass attitude about the players when not working. Members know it exists and it is no big deal. But when it comes to changing out one lightweight carry bag for another, the caddy is just jerking around and the caddy master should not allow it. Don't think for a minute that caddies are not just seeing what they can get away with... all us boys do it all the time... Caddies at CPC and Pebble get away with this nonsense that caddies at NGLA, Merion and about a thousand other clubs would not DREAM of doing. Are you telling me that there is an endemic bad back problems in CA? I'll call it California soft.

Bill, Just so we don't have a misunderstanding, I 'm not familiar with all caddie yards. Just the Pebble Beach co. I never really hung out on the bench very much, so I'm not privy,nor did hear caddies talking about what douche their last loop was.  I took people on their face and adapted accordingly. FYI, The caddiemaster does work for the company, and there were damn few who knew how to be a good one. You may think it's just some easy remedial job, but, to be a good caddiemaster requires a wide range of people skills and the awareness to use them optimally.
Also, All carry bags are not created equally. They don't all function the same. Having issues out on the course, with your bag, be it strap or leg related, is designed out of the equation by swapping it out. Get over it and focus on your round.

Once, I was paired with a brand new Louis Vitton leather gold trim bag whose owner refused to allow a swap. He took a cart. Sure I coulda carry his bag, but I would've needed a week off, and thats exactly what I told him.

  Funny you mention Merion. Big deal, the guy carried my own bag. He left it near 18 fairway so he wouldn't have to carry it down and up the quarry for 17 and 18. As a result, I wasn't able to finish the 17th hole because my bag wasn't there and he didn't bring an extra ball or the right club. Point being, at Pebble, nobody leaves a bag for convenience. Your clubs and belongings are always there by your side.

I feel bad for those who view the caddie/player relationship as master and slave. It says more about them, then the caddie.

[Bill Brightly]

You know what, my caddy at Merion last year did the same thing to me at 17 and I was annoyed... I hit a piss poor shot way right and short on 17 and never thought that my caddy would be the chosen one who got to stay up top on 17 while the other caddy handled the pin. So I was left alone to search for my ball in ankle high crap for a few minutes before dropping, while he had a smoke waiting for us to hit our drives on 18... That is a practice that the caddies employ on my home course, and it ticks me off...

I certainly do not view the caddy-player relationship as master-slave. In fact, I go out of my way to help the caddy. I'll always take a couple of wedges when I miss the green in case he needs to help the other player, I rake my own traps when I see he may have two traps to rake, etc. That comes from doing the job for 8 years. So I know good caddying from bad caddying. I recognize hustling and extra effort. Here is a photo of a 65 year-old caddy hustling! (He had to do this because Joe Bausch hit a ball so far right that the other caddy had to pack a lunch to go find it...)

18th at Saucon Valley Weyhill

I also recognize poor caddy master instruction/supervision when I see it. So my beef really should not be with the caddies at PB and CP. It should be with the caddy masters who let them get away with it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I feel bad for those who view the caddie/player relationship as master and slave.
It says more about them, then the caddie.

Baloney.

Your categorization of all caddies being saints is absurd..
Like golfers, they run the gamut from great to lousy.

Secondly, your exageration of the relationship is equally absurd.

The caddy works for the golfer
If the caddy thinks he works for someone else, let him collect from someone else.

I've had great and bad caddies.

The best reader of the greens I've ever had was a young kid at Inverness.
I even contacted Hale Irwin and told him to get this kid for the USGA Senior Open as he could read greens like no other caddy I'd had.
He even read greens from the perspective of chips and pitches and was uncanny with his accuracy.

And, I've had bad caddies.
And, I don't consider a guy who can't read greens or judge yardages to be a bad caddy, he's just not a good reader or greens nor a good judge of yardages.

Bad caddies, IMHO, leave your bag down the fairway and hand you a club for the par 3 you're about to play.
Bad caddies insist upon playing the hole "their" way, without consideration for how you want to play the hole.
Bad caddies put your clubs in other golfer's bags and vice versa.
Bad caddies don't watch where you hit your ball
Bad caddies think that they're great caddies.

And, I used to caddy, as did my dad many years before me, and, my youngest son will start caddying this summer.
So, I know the job from both ends as well.

Ask the caddies at any of the clubs I play at how they view me and how they view their relationship with me.

The nonsense you promote about the concept of "master and slave" and what that indicates about the golfer is pure B.S.

I asked Tiger Woods about caddies and he informed me that he doesn't like caddies to read putts to him and he doesn't like caddies to volunteer information to him.

I happen to agree with that, with the exception that I prefer to know where to drive the ball, not where NOT to drive the ball, on a course I'm not familiar with.

Streamsong Red is a perfect example, for me.
I didn't want to know where the trouble was, just where the ideal spot to drive it to was.

The caddy, my son and I had a great time for three days at Streamsong.

[Andy Shulman]

I know I'm jumping into the middle of a heated discussion here.  I'll only add that the caddies at Kinloch did the bag switching thing two years ago during the Dixie Cup.  I and several of the other GCAers were not too happy about this arrangement, especially those of us that already own lightweight carry bags.  I'll side with Mr. Mucci on this one.  The employer should be able to set reasonable terms of employment, not the employee.

[Scott Warren]

I carry a small (two-way divider) carry bag and carry only 11 clubs, 4-6 balls and a small container of tees, pencils, pitchmark tools.

Are you guys saying there are caddies out there who would swap my stuff out to a bag that they preferred carrying?!

I've never had a bag switched out, but I do hate it when caddies take my headcovers off so my driver and putter clunk around into my irons and get damaged.