[Paul Jones]

What are the benefits of dredging ponds?  Is it worth it, compared to the cost?

[Bill_McBride]

What are the benefits of dredging ponds?  Is it worth it, compared to the cost?

You have to be careful doing that in Louisiana.  No telling what you might find!

[SL_Solow]

What is the intended purpose?  Is the pond a retention pond for irrigation water?  Generally, deeper means a cleaner and better appearance and may improve quality of irrigation water (remember I said generally).  You can decide on a case by case basis whether that justifies the cost.

[SB]

In general, you don't dredge ponds because you want to.  You do it because you have to.

[Mike_Young]

Ponds do require dredging and it's a safe bet that most of the material being dredged out came from the surrounding fairways, roughs and other areas.  Removing the material is rarely the issue as much as how to transport it without destroying cart paths, fairways or ingress and egress into a club.  Ideally it can be spread out to dry and then topdressed back into fairways otherwise it can get expensive.

[Garland Bayley]

I can see the benefits for at least three reasons:

1) increase storage capacity for irrigation pond;
2) need a source of fill material coupled with benefit 1);
3) existing pond is irrigation source but is shallow and leaks. Dredge to increase capacity and to install liner.

So, most of the reasons I can think of relate to irrigation. Poor water quality or invasion of plant material in shallow pond can be other reasons but depending upon the location of the pond the costs may not justify the environmental and visual benefits.

There are probably other benefits as well. Dredging may also be just one component of a renovation plan that improves the design of a golf hole(s) by reconfiguring the outline of the pond as well.

So Rufus,

Have they had to dredge at Lederach? Or, is too new to need such maintenance yet?

[Bill Brightly]

What are the benefits of dredging ponds?  Is it worth it, compared to the cost?

I've heard that deeper irrigation ponds means cooler water, which is more desirable for the grass when you have to sprinkle.

[Jon Wiggett]

I've heard that deeper irrigation ponds means cooler water, which is more desirable for the grass when you have to sprinkle.

Is it not better to have the water as close to the temperature of the rootzone? By pumping significantly colder water onto the grass all you achieve is shocking the grass and slowing/stopping growth which is surely not desirable as it might lead to increased disease occurrence.

Jon

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

I've heard that deeper irrigation ponds means cooler water, which is more desirable for the grass when you have to sprinkle.

Is it not better to have the water as close to the temperature of the rootzone? By pumping significantly colder water onto the grass all you achieve is shocking the grass and slowing/stopping growth which is surely not desirable as it might lead to increased disease occurrence.

Jon

Jon
I've had that debate with myself more than once. I think there might a point where it could be detrimental depending on conditions but I can say that in most cases being able to syringe cool season turf with cool water during extremely high temperatures is greatly beneficial in helping the plant through the stress. As I'm sure you know, syringing helps the plant 'catch up' on taking up water by cooling it off enough to where it is not excessively transpiring trying to cool down. IMO the cooler the water going onto the plant the better. The benefits from the syringe does not last long but the cooler the water the longer the benefit.

I compare it to a person on a hot day - if you're sweating and someone sprays a cool mist over you, it feels good, and preferable to having the cool water blasted onto your body, where there would be an initial shock before it felt ok once your body adapted. The same goes for the plant, the mist is fine but any shock from a heavier cool watering is minimal and the longer benefits are worth it. Similarly if the water is cool enough to cool the rootzone, even a few degrees, it can help too - although that amount of water might not be a god idea during extreme heat, especially without adequate drainage, so it would greatly depend on the environmental conditions at that point.

FWIW I have put ice on areas of bentgrass sod during periods of high ET, where syringing/watering was not enough to stop it wilting. As the ice melted it cooled the plant and the wilt snapped back, proving any shock was momentary and not detrimental to the overall health.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Deeper ponds (7' or so" don't allow sunlight to penetrate to the bottom, and thus reduce algae growth, along with the other benefits listed.  As Mike Y says, I hope you have a place to dump your sludge....

[Jon Wiggett]

Jeff,

in a body of water of any decent size it is unlikely that temperatures will rise above 30C which will still cool the rootzone down without shock. Actually, pumping significantly colder water (mains water used by many is only 4C or 5C) will not only shock the grass short term but might also lead to an increase in temp long term.

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

in a body of water of any decent size it is unlikely that temperatures will rise above 30C which will still cool the rootzone down without shock.

Jon,

That's 86 degrees F, that's warm, especially in the NE

Actually, pumping significantly colder water (mains water used by many is only 4C or 5C) will not only shock the grass short term but might also lead to an increase in temp long term.

4C is less than 39 F, where would you find turf at dangerously high temperatures with water at temperatures close to freezing ?

Jon

[Jon Wiggett]

Patrick,

yes 86F is warm though it depends where the NE is as to weather that is hot . If you use groundwater or deep reservoir/lake extraction for water source then it would be this sort of temperature.

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

yes 86F is warm though it depends where the NE is as to weather that is hot . If you use groundwater or deep reservoir/lake extraction for water source then it would be this sort of temperature.


Jon,

I doubt you'll find an outfall pipe for irrigation deeper than 20 feet.

I can't think of any, can you ?
Jon

[Jon Wiggett]

Patrick,

yes 86F is warm though it depends where the NE is as to weather that is hot . If you use groundwater or deep reservoir/lake extraction for water source then it would be this sort of temperature.


Jon,

I doubt you'll find an outfall pipe for irrigation deeper than 20 feet.

I can't think of any, can you ?
Jon

Stop trying to pick one of your brainless argument and get a life Patrick

[Jeff_Brauer]

Probably means the intake pipe for the vertical turbine pumps.  Typically, they aren't more than 20 feet deep, and if you figure the pump station floor is a few feet above water level, then you can only draw about 18 feet of water out of any lake, even if it was Loch Ness deep.

[Bill Brightly]

Deeper ponds (7' or so" don't allow sunlight to penetrate to the bottom, and thus reduce algae growth, along with the other benefits listed.  As Mike Y says, I hope you have a place to dump your sludge....

Jeff,

When we dredged our ponds we ended up digging a series of holes in the center of our property, placing that dirt on the exterior of our property, and then filling in the holes with dredged material from the pond. We did it in the winter when no one was on the course but I observed it. Man, if anyone ever fell in those pits... the soupiest quicksand-like pit I have ever seen, and we eventually capped that off. It was far cheaper than hauling the material off site or dealing with the neighbors on the edge of our property.

We only dredged the ponds after the State forced us to re-build our earthen dam. One thing I found to be amazing: when the big trucks started rolling, the service road was turned to dirt by the end of the first day.

As Jeff suggests, adding a few feet of depth to the ponds really helped minimize algea and our superintendent is happier drawing water from the lower, cooler depths.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bill,

We did that at La Costa, and other places.  SOP for us.  But it was very quick sand like, and you can let it sit out a few months, but it rarely dries out, esp in winter!  Those areas will settle, so you want to know where they are on maps, and be careful not to build anything over them in the future, like cart paths, etc.

[SL_Solow]

We took our sludge to our practice area and shaped some target greens.  Minimal transport, no dumping fees and an improved range.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

yes 86F is warm though it depends where the NE is as to weather that is hot . If you use groundwater or deep reservoir/lake extraction for water source then it would be this sort of temperature.


Jon,

I doubt you'll find an outfall pipe for irrigation deeper than 20 feet.

I can't think of any, can you ?
Jon

Stop trying to pick one of your brainless argument and get a life Patrick

The fact that you can't cite an intake/outfall pipe deeper than 20 feet proves my point.

You're not going to access water at depths that cause it to be a few degrees above freezing when turf temperatures at the surface are high.

Thus your position lacks any merit.

But I can understand your I testiness as you already knew that you were presenting a bogus scenario and knew that I would expose it as same.

[Jon Wiggett]

Patrick,

yes 86F is warm though it depends where the NE is as to weather that is hot . If you use groundwater or deep reservoir/lake extraction for water source then it would be this sort of temperature.


Jon,

I doubt you'll find an outfall pipe for irrigation deeper than 20 feet.

I can't think of any, can you ?
Jon

Stop trying to pick one of your brainless argument and get a life Patrick

The fact that you can't cite an intake/outfall pipe deeper than 20 feet proves my point.

You're not going to access water at depths that cause it to be a few degrees above freezing when turf temperatures at the surface are high.

Thus your position lacks any merit.

But I can understand your I testiness as you already knew that you were presenting a bogus scenario and knew that I would expose it as same.

Patrick,

you were the one that brought up 20 feet I never mentioned that depth that is why I did not comment beyond suggesting you got a life. That you chose to set up your own flimsy scenario in some pathetic attempt to make yourself look big says a lot about you. I was commenting on temperature and the information was all in my posts if you have the knowledge and wit to understand it.

It is not unusual for mains water to be drawn from ground water well in excess of a depth of 20 feet and the same is true in reservoir extraction depths. 

I have said it in the past. It is a shame that an intelligent and knowledgeable guy like yourself choses to act in such a crappy and antisocial way. You could bring so much to this site but instead are one of the most derided posters on here because of your conduct.

[Grant Saunders]

Patrick,

yes 86F is warm though it depends where the NE is as to weather that is hot . If you use groundwater or deep reservoir/lake extraction for water source then it would be this sort of temperature.


Jon,

I doubt you'll find an outfall pipe for irrigation deeper than 20 feet.

I can't think of any, can you ?
Jon

Our irrigation pump had to be replaced the other week.  A submersible at  a depth of 37 metres which is over 100 feet. I also know of a course where air temps can exceed 30 degrees c and they pump from a lake which is only 8 degree c temperature.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jon,

Since you can't recall what you posted, I've quoted you

Where will you find turf temperatures of 86 F and irrigation pond temperatures in the water being used of 39 F ?
Jeff,

in a body of water of any decent size it is unlikely that temperatures will rise above 30C which will still cool the rootzone down without shock. Actually, pumping significantly colder water (mains water used by many is only 4C or 5C) will not only shock the grass short term but might also lead to an increase in temp long term.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

yes 86F is warm though it depends where the NE is as to weather that is hot . If you use groundwater or deep reservoir/lake extraction for water source then it would be this sort of temperature.


Jon,

I doubt you'll find an outfall pipe for irrigation deeper than 20 feet.

I can't think of any, can you ?
Jon

Our irrigation pump had to be replaced the other week.  A submersible at  a depth of 37 metres which is over 100 feet. I also know of a course where air temps can exceed 30 degrees c and they pump from a lake which is only 8 degree c temperature.

Grant,

Don't keep us in the dark, what are the names of those courses which have irrigation ponds with depths over 100 feet,  and where are they located ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

you were the one that brought up 20 feet I never mentioned that depth that is why I did not comment beyond suggesting you got a life. That you chose to set up your own flimsy scenario in some pathetic attempt to make yourself look big says a lot about you. I was commenting on temperature and the information was all in my posts if you have the knowledge and wit to understand it.

Water temperature in an irrigation pond/lake, especially water temperature when turf temperature is at 86 degrees F is ALL about depth.
Depth determines temperature.
That you don't understand the relationship says all I need to know.

You cited turf  temperature at 86 F and water temperature being applied to that turf of 39 F, a mere 7 degrees above freezing.

That you chose to get nasty and personalize your replies tells me all I need to know about you.

It is not unusual for mains water to be drawn from ground water well in excess of a depth of 20 feet and the same is true in reservoir extraction .


In case you missed it, this thread is about "PONDS", not Artesian wells

I have said it in the past. It is a shame that an intelligent and knowledgeable guy like yourself choses to act in such a crappy and antisocial way.


I'm not acting in a "crappy and antisocial way", I'm challenging your statement.

And how do you meet that challenge ?
Rather than provide facts supporting your statement, you choose to be "crappy and antisocial" by launching a personal attack.

I guess you're not used to being challenged, even when you make ridiculous statements

You could bring so much to this site but instead are one of the most derided posters on here because of your conduct.

Why don't you try to cite supporting evidence of an irrigation pond where the temperature of the turf at the surface is 86 F and the water obtained from an irrigation pond is 39 F, 7 F above freezing ?

Is it because you made a absurd statement and are embarrassed that you were challenged and can't support your statement, so you choose to divert the focus from your embarrassment and attack me  ?
I think so.

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