Pete Dye must be sooo proud

[cary lichtenstein]

Pete Dye must be so proud of his design. The course produced a real test and an exciting, very exciting drama filled finish!!!!!!!!!

[Mac Plumart]

The Dye's seem to be having a great run of golf championships the last few years.

Congrats to them!

[Bill Brightly]

Classic stroke play design for pros. As good as it gets if that is the design intent.

[noonan]

I like the new pin position on 18 Sunday - total risk reward

[Mac Plumart]

Jerry, I liked it too.

What do you think about shaving that fringe\collar that separates the green from the water to make the risk\reward more intense with that front left pin (Sunday pin)?

[Scott Warren]

How was it a risk/reward pin on 18? You could hit a short iron approach shot 30ft right and have it feed all the way to the hole.

[Mac Plumart]

Good point, Scott. You did not need to challenge the pin.  Simply hit it right and feed it down.

[Brian Finn]

After the final round, one reporter asked Tiger if he would like to play the course without rough, F&F all fairway length.  Tiger said that was essentially the setup for the '94 amateur, during which many balls rolled through the fairway into palmetto bushes. He also said he thought that was how Pete Dye intended the course to be setup, and is more difficult.  Is he correct (about Dye's intent)?  I know the course has been softened over the years, but was not aware of this element.

[John Shimp]

Except  when you hit it 5 feet too safe to the right and you cant 2 putt (lingermerth) or a bit left and you are wet.  Risk/reward is what that pin is on 18. Got to split the middle w about 50 ' to work w from 150 to 210 yds. 

[noonan]

How was it a risk/reward pin on 18? You could hit a short iron approach shot 30ft right and have it feed all the way to the hole.

If you played it too safe - you had a putt you could not keep on the green as evidenced by Lingmerth - you had to atl least keep the ball 20 feet or so right - and not go long

[Brett_Morrissy]

I didnt see the final round - but would like to pose a question: Would the result have been different if the water that surrounds the holes on the closing stretch did not exist, but were "ball finding hazards"?

If the desire or barometer of a proud Pete Dye, was to see those golfers with some mental fallabilities humiliated, - I suppose he is lighting up a fine Cuban. Not a lot of subtle design going on is there? Is the strategy rule number one: DO NOT get your ball wet?

Sounds as though there was lots of carnage ?

[Mac Plumart]

Sounds as though there was lots of carnage ?

Not really.  Sergio had 'issues', but other than that I wouldn't call it carnage.

[noonan]

They just replayed Sergio rinsing on 17. He had a wedge teed up high - like 4 iron high - no wonder it came up short

[Wayne_Kozun]

Sergio's second shot into 17(his third with penalty) hit above the hazard line and bounced back into the pond.  Could(Should) he not have dropped right by the bunker where the ball last crossed the hazard line?

[SteveOgulukian]

Sergio's second shot into 17(his third with penalty) hit above the hazard line and bounced back into the pond.  Could(Should) he not have dropped right by the bunker where the ball last crossed the hazard line?

No, because it was not a lateral hazard (red). Since it was a yellow water hazard, he needs to keep the point where the ball last crossed the hazard line between him and the hole on his next shot.  Because of how the hole is set up, that is not always an option so he could re-tee or go to the drop area.

Same exact situation as Tigers infamous drop on 15 at Augusta.  Tiger did not have the option of dropping on the other side of the pond.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

After the final round, one reporter asked Tiger if he would like to play the course without rough, F&F all fairway length.  Tiger said that was essentially the setup for the '94 amateur, during which many balls rolled through the fairway into palmetto bushes. He also said he thought that was how Pete Dye intended the course to be setup, and is more difficult.  Is he correct (about Dye's intent)?  I know the course has been softened over the years, but was not aware of this element.

That's what I said about The Ocean Course.  To make it the most difficult, remove the rough and have the fairways stimping at about 8.

[Bill_McBride]

Is the Players the only tournament where the golf course architecture plays as big a role as the players themselves?

The design is so on the edge.  Almost every shot can bring about disaster or heroism. 

[Thomas Dai]

Reference Tiger comment about the TPC setup 'for the '94 amateur, during which many balls rolled through the fairway into palmetto bushes'.

Any one got any photos of what the course looked like during the '94 amateur?

Also, what time of year was it played and did that effect the set-up?

Just curious.

All the best.

[Garland Bayley]

Shouldn't they be ashamed. The 17th allows no recovery shots, thereby taking the drama out of the tournament, and giving everyone the idea that lots of ponds on a golf course is OK.

Too bad the PGA Tour had to locate their home offices in Florida, home of the Doak 0.
What could be one of the greatest tournaments turns into a ball rinsing exercise.

[Mac Plumart]

Let's not get it twisted,

it maybe a Bailey 0.

But it is a Doak 8. (Page 145, The Confidential Guide 1996, Sleeping Bear Press).

[Brent Hutto]

Where's my eye-roll icon...

Ah, there it is. This forum needs a good WTF emoticon.

Hopefully the collective GCA arteries have not hardened to the point where every hole in every championship in the world must be amenable to play with a putter from tee to green.

[Garland Bayley]

Let's not get it twisted,

it maybe a Bailey 0.

But it is a Doak 8. (Page 145, The Confidential Guide 1996, Sleeping Bear Press).

Let's not twist what I wrote. I wrote that Florida is home to the Doak 0, not TPC Sawgrass. The reference of course is I believe Jud Tigerman's thread on Florida being full of Doak 0s.

The unfortunate thing about the TPC Sawgrass location is that you almost have to create ponds to create a golf course there. That is as opposed to the three sand ridges that run through the state, where fine golf can be found. E.g., Sugarloaf and Streamsong are located along the central sand ridge.

[Jason Thurman]

The wonderful thing about the location of TPC Sawgrass is the way it exposes dogmatic and generalized thinking about golf course design for the trite whining that it really is.

Sawgrass is a great tournament course and a great golf course. It's also one of the greatest engineering achievements in the history of golf course architecture. I don't understand how anyone who claims to care about golf course architecture can find it anything less than compelling, regardless of whether it's a course they'd want to play every day or not. The idea that the 17th "takes the drama out of the tournament" is the funniest thing I've heard this morning though. Thanks for that.

I recall a lot of water at Streamsong too.

[Garland Bayley]

The wonderful thing about the location of TPC Sawgrass is the way it exposes dogmatic and generalized thinking about golf course design for the trite whining that it really is.

Please feel free to move to Florida and play as many of the general pond infested golf courses as you can.

Sawgrass is a great tournament course and a great golf course.

The implication was that it could be better. I do think it is a great golf tournament, but it could have been better.

It's also one of the greatest engineering achievements in the history of golf course architecture.

Balderdash

I don't understand how anyone who claims to care about golf course architecture can find it anything less than compelling, regardless of whether it's a course they'd want to play every day or not.

The idea that the 17th "takes the drama out of the tournament" is the funniest thing I've heard this morning though.

I'm sure it would be for the unthinking.

Thanks for that.

I recall a lot of water at Streamsong too.

Please read carefully. The statement was that you do not have to create ponds when building in the vicinity of Streamsong. Please point out what ponds Doak and C&C created there.

[Josh Tarble]

The course was designed to be a test for pros and host the PGA Tours yearly tournament.  I don't see how you can argue it hasn't done a great job at doing just those things.  In fact, the only thing that it probably needs is more length now (which is another matter entirely).

The fact remains, the only true hazard for professionals is water.  These guys are getting up and down from bunkers at roughly 60%.  I'm guessing if 17 was surrounded by sand instead of water, not a single guy out there would be intimidated by it.

16, 17 and 18 are as good as finishing holes as there is on the tour.

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