News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0


Clovernook Country Club opened in 1923 on farmland in Cincinnati, OH. After 90 years, it is one of the relatively few unchanged Langford and Moreau routings still around. It shows many similar qualities to their other designs like Lawsonia, but on a more heavily treed property with terrain much more severe in spots and much less consistent overall. In fact, considering the property constraints, Clovernook might be a more elegantly routed course than Lawsonia even if it can’t match the brawniness and spaciousness of its big brother. Clovernook stands as a true testament to Langford’s ability to route excellent and playable golf holes across alternately severe and mundane terrain and to create variety on a less than great property.

Though of modest length at only 6560 or so from the new back tees, and around 6400 from the members’ tees, a tremendous amount of variation exists at Clovernook. Players will find holes on which to turn the driver loose, and holes on which to lay up with a 5w or long iron. They’ll hit everything from a short iron to a driver off the tee on par 3s. And they’ll face some of the most daunting recovery shots in the tri-state area to greens that range from extremely contoured to frighteningly pitched.

I’ll profile the course three holes at a time in hopes that some discussion will develop. There’s some really interesting strategy at work on many of the holes here and several are worthy of discussion. Yardages listed are from the members’ tees.

1st Hole, 460 yard par 5:

Decisions begin right away at the first, a classic half-par hole with multiple options on the first and second shots. As a par 5 for everyday play but a par 4 for tournament play, it’s a hole that the competitive player expects to reach in two. The best way to do that, however, is debatable. The tee shot moves slightly left to right with a stand of trees left, a daunting bunker complex right, and a fierce downslope long.

Tee shot. The landing area is partially blind:


The first of a series of bunkers cutting in to the right half of the fairway:


The options are as follows:

1.   Bang a driver over the bunkers (about a 255 yard carry), leaving no more than a middle iron approach from a steeply downhill lie.

2.   Hit a driver or 3w between the trees and bunkers (a shot of about 255 yards total), to a narrow landing area with a long iron approach from a slightly downhill lie.

3.   Lay up with a wood or long iron, staying short of the bunkers (a shot of about 230 yards) to a flat and wide area of the fairway, leaving an approach of about 240 yards.

Personally, I prefer option 3 as the prevailing wind helps apply the brakes to a long and high approach and the second shot gives plenty of room to lay up short of the green. The second shot must carry a ravine (which we’ll see on many holes in this early stretch), but the stream at the bottom is really not in play unless a player makes a serious mistake with one of his first two shots. This is the first of many examples of how Langford’s routing worked to make a severe (in spots) property playable and interesting for everyone from scratch players to high handicappers. The strong player’s second shot is an interesting one, as he tries to reach the green in two. But the high handicapper also gets an interesting shot as he focuses on carrying the ravine and reaching the greenside section of fairway. There’s no shot in golf less interesting than a layup on a par 5, but Langford gave this layup a bit of drama to make it more engaging.

A look at the approach over the ravine from the right rough:


Like most holes at Clovernook (and other courses shaped by Moreau), reaching the green is only a small part of the battle. Once on, the player finds himself on a green with two pronounced ridges that make lag putts difficult. The greens at Clovernook tend to be large, fast, and heavily sloped. The first is one of about 7 that could vie for the title of best on the course and is as strong as any Moreau-shaped green that I’ve seen (which is a BIG compliment).

From right of the green, stern bunkers and a heavily contoured green await:


2nd Hole, 400 yard par 4:

One reason that Clovernook plays longer than its modest length would suggest is the way Langford routed many angled tee shots. The 2nd hole gives the first example of this. The tee shot goes back across the same ravine we saw on the first hole. A well struck drive up the left side of the fairway might leave just a wedge in, though a pull risks ending up in a severe depression. A drive pushed to the right side of the fairway, however, will face a mid iron approach or worse if it finds trees.

You can bust driver here, but hit it straight:


The fairway slopes hard from right to left:


The approach to the second hole is more straightforward, with a tree right of the green making it difficult to access right pin positions. The green is another large one with a lot of contour and a bit of a subtle false front. Two-putting from outside 20 feet becomes very difficult when the greens are running full speed.

One of the more straightforward approaches on the course:


Plenty of undulation in the green:


3rd Hole, 370 yard par 4:

Just a blast of a short hole and one of the better tests of accuracy on the course, the third hole begins with a cool tee that is essentially part of the practice putting green. The play off the tee is a draw of 250 yards or less to the end of the fairway (which falls into the same ravine we saw on the first two holes). The fairway is steeply banked from right to left and balls that hit on the right-center of the fairway get a big kick that can take them down to the fairway’s edge, leaving the shortest reasonable approach to the green.

The view from the members’ tee:


Lots of trouble for a miss left into the valley:


The real challenge of the hole, though, begins with the approach. One of the best greensites on the course awaits. The shaping here is pure Langford and Moreau – a steeply elevated green with severe fallaway edges into bunkers on all sides. The green slopes steeply back-to-front as well. A good approach that stays short of the hole will leave a good chance at birdie. An approach that leaks a few feet past the pin leaves a difficult par. And an approach that misses the green on either side or long virtually guarantees bogey. The right bunker is about 6 feet deep, while the left bunker is probably closer to 8. It’s a tough but fair penalty for an approach that should come from no more than 100-150 yards.

The first look at the fabulous third greensite on the approach:


Looking up from the bottom of the ravine:


A miss left means playing from this ~8 foot deep bunker:


Looking over to the 3rd green from the 2nd tee:
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 09:07:54 AM by Jason Thurman »
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jason,
Looks like the course is on some pretty wild land and really fun.  I haven't played any L&M courses, so cannot comment on that front.  But I look forward to seeing the rest and seeing it in person.

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jason,

Any talk / plans to restore abandoned bunkers on the 18th hole?

I noticed these when I played last fall.

There are some great built up Langford & Moreau greens at Clovernook.

Chris

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Wow, I'm looking forward to the rest of this photo journey.  So far, holes 2 and 3 definitely have the look and flavor of L&M.  The first looks to be altered from what one might expect an original presentation looked like.  I think the segmented bunker on the inside right of that FW seems quite out of place for a L&M, which I would have expected was once a large single gull-wing shaped hazard with large flatish sand and steep grass slope fading away to the right.  Also, the creek-ravine in the photo does not look as pronounced or in-play as the aerial photo.  So, it is hard to tell that aspect of use of that natural feature in L&Ms routing plan. 

3 looks to be a real dandy shortish par 4 that screams L&M. 

Another aspect evident from thes pics so far, and aerial, is the presentation of some hole corridors that play right to left, instead of like Lawsonia's singularly presented 'all right turn' ball flight corridors (which may be Lawsonia's biggest flaw). 

Thanks for this tour, Jason.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
That approach to 3 looks sensational.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Chris, I'm not sure about the bunkers on 18. I assume you're referring to the cavernous grass bunker that's in play for a pushed tee shot there as well as a pushed tee shot on 17. It's an awful spot to be on either hole, probably worse without sand. Our assistant pro has mentioned that he thinks the bunkers will be getting touched up again over the next few years (they were last done about 10 years ago). It's possible they'd look into recapturing that one, but I haven't heard anything about it. I'd really love to see the fairway bunkers on 10 restored. They're evident in the old aerial in the clubhouse but there's no trace of them left

RJ, we're in total agreement about the left-to-right shot shapes at Lawsonia. It surprises me a bit, but I actually think a draw is the preferred way around Clovernook with the exception of 1, 9, 15, 16. You could also make a case for 5 and 12. As for hole 1, the fairway bunkers don't appear to have been original. Still, they're placed very well and I'd love to see them remain with a gull wing face added. The current version not only doesn't fit the look of the rest of the course, but is also mostly blind from the tee. It would be awesome to see a Langford and Moreau eyebrow staring back at the tee shot there, and very intimidating. It's still a very Langford-feeling first tee shot though, with the semi-blindness and left-to-right ballflight. In those respects, it's very similar to the uncomfortable first shots at Lawsonia and Spring Valley.

Beyond that, it's surprising how much the course resembles that old aerial. Not a ton has changed out there, though I suspect some of the bunker faces might have been bolder 80 years ago.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Chris, I'm not sure about the bunkers on 18. I assume you're referring to the cavernous grass bunker that's in play for a pushed tee shot there as well as a pushed tee shot on 17. It's an awful spot to be on either hole, probably worse without sand. Our assistant pro has mentioned that he thinks the bunkers will be getting touched up again over the next few years (they were last done about 10 years ago). It's possible they'd look into recapturing that one, but I haven't heard anything about it. I'd really love to see the fairway bunkers on 10 restored. They're evident in the old aerial in the clubhouse but there's no trace of them left


Yes, these are the bunkers I am talking about, I believe the course layout in the proshop has them on the plan, I could be wrong.

I did not notice the bunkers on 10 on the plan, I will have to look at my picture.

Chris


JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jason,
Looks like the course is on some pretty wild land and really fun.  I haven't played any L&M courses, so cannot comment on that front.  But I look forward to seeing the rest and seeing it in person.

While much of Ohio is dreadfully flat, the Cincinnati area was not reached by glaciers and has a lot of great terrain for golf.

I'm looking forward to the rest of this tour. I grew up in Cincinnati but have never played Clovernook, though it's where my dad used to caddy which led to him becoming a golfer which led to him teaching the game to my brothers and me. So I owe a debt of gratitude to Clovernook. I'm impressed with the pics so far.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
L/M are really good. Looking forward to the rest of the tour.

Bob

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jason,

Thanks for posting.  L&M might be the most underrated GCA's of the classic era.  Not really sure why that is, other than they did most of their work in the midwest, and don't have any big name tournament courses to speak of.  But anyone who's been to Lawsonia, Skokie or Harrison Hills knows they knew their stuff.  I'm always on the lookout for more of their original work, as should everyone here.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Classic L/M.  Thanks for sharing.  Third green looks awesome. 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Criss Titschinger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jason, I'm looking forward to the rest of this profile. I always did think Clovernook CC was a much underrated course as far as Cincinnati, and Ohio golf for that matter, go. Some of the best greens in the city, easily. The course isn't too long for modern standards (plenty long for me), but it has strong defense with its greens; especially when summer rolls around and they get fast.

The course is on some pretty interesting land, which always surprises people not familiar with Cincinnati. People think Ohio and immediately think flat. Even friends of mine from within state (Toledo, Columbus) are surprised when they come down here. Despite its hills, I think Clovernook is a very walkable course, which can't be said for all Cincinnati courses. I recently played Losantiville CC and was really surprised by the elevation changes; given its nearby neighbor, Maketewah, isn't nearly as hilly. Was glad we played with caddies that day.

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jason,
Looks like the course is on some pretty wild land and really fun.  I haven't played any L&M courses, so cannot comment on that front.  But I look forward to seeing the rest and seeing it in person.

While much of Ohio is dreadfully flat, the Cincinnati area was not reached by glaciers and has a lot of great terrain for golf.

I'm looking forward to the rest of this tour. I grew up in Cincinnati but have never played Clovernook, though it's where my dad used to caddy which led to him becoming a golfer which led to him teaching the game to my brothers and me. So I owe a debt of gratitude to Clovernook. I'm impressed with the pics so far.

I hate when people say much of Ohio is flat.  Much of Ohio along the Ohio Turnpike is flat, but following I70 across the state and up into the Cleveland area is hilly.  Follow state route 33 down to West Virginia for quite hilly terrain.  IMO more than half of Ohio is hilly.

Chris

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I took a look at their web page:

http://clovernookcc.com/

One thing that would be helpful for those viewing the web page would be to do a better job of presenting their course in the holes of the course photo and descriptive tour.  The photos don't show much, particularly compared to what Jason is offering. 

The distance off the various tees looks like it really falls in the sweet spots for all including; senior white, blue member and black tee local tournament play, along with the ladies starting blocks. 

Is there any good information on the history of any resto-reno activity by other archies.  The website and other links I found only refer to a 2001 bunker renovation project, but so far I haven't found any mention of who supervised the work.  Also, for those who have played there, is the simple removal of some encroaching trees from playing corridor presentation of bunkers and any consideration of 'original intent of L&M' design features, and advisable undertaking? (which definitely has improved Lawsonia from past years) 

They apparently host a significant local tournament called 'The Bearcat Opener' held as part of a three course fall series. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jason, I'm looking forward to the rest of this profile. I always did think Clovernook CC was a much underrated course as far as Cincinnati, and Ohio golf for that matter, go. Some of the best greens in the city, easily. The course isn't too long for modern standards (plenty long for me), but it has strong defense with its greens; especially when summer rolls around and they get fast.

The course is on some pretty interesting land, which always surprises people not familiar with Cincinnati. People think Ohio and immediately think flat. Even friends of mine from within state (Toledo, Columbus) are surprised when they come down here. Despite its hills, I think Clovernook is a very walkable course, which can't be said for all Cincinnati courses. I recently played Losantiville CC and was really surprised by the elevation changes; given its nearby neighbor, Maketewah, isn't nearly as hilly. Was glad we played with caddies that day.

Wait till the green site for 7, par 3 8 th and par 3 14 th are posted.

Chris

Billsteele

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jason-Thanks for the photo tour. I played Clovernook a couple of years ago and enjoyed it. My impressions were that there were the bones of a very good course present but the course could really benefit from strategic tree removal, bunker restoration and recovering some of the aspects of the greensites that have been lost over the years. It is really easy to see the handiwork of Langford and Moreau around some of the greens with the sharply angled drop offs and deep bunkers. I doubt the membership would be interested in recovering some of the lost aspects of the course because it seemed like they were very content with what they had. I also get the impression that Clovernook has a rather modest dues structure that keeps the club healthy financially but probably leaves little room for the flourishes that would make this board drool. Thanks again. Hope to get down there again someday.

Jeff Shelman

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'm also looking forward to the rest of this. I played nine holes here back when I lived in Cincinnati before getting rained out (and back when I didn't know as much about GCA as I think I do now).

I did walk the entire golf course when covering the USGA sectional qualifying event where Casey Martin qualified for the US Open.


JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
I hate when people say much of Ohio is flat.  Much of Ohio along the Ohio Turnpike is flat, but following I70 across the state and up into the Cleveland area is hilly.  Follow state route 33 down to West Virginia for quite hilly terrain.  IMO more than half of Ohio is hilly.

Chris

If you draw a line from Dayton through Columbus, up to Akron and then straight north to Cleveland, much of the land to the left and above that line is pretty daggone flat. That's probably close to two thirds of the state. I'll grant you that my numerous trips from Cincinnati up 75 to Michigan and up 71 to Columbus may be biasing me, and that the southeastern areas of the state have lots of hills even leading into the Allegheny foothills, but I would not consider a majority of Ohio to be hilly.

In any case, looking forward to more pics of Clovernook.

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
I hate when people say much of Ohio is flat.  Much of Ohio along the Ohio Turnpike is flat, but following I70 across the state and up into the Cleveland area is hilly.  Follow state route 33 down to West Virginia for quite hilly terrain.  IMO more than half of Ohio is hilly.

Chris

If you draw a line from Dayton through Columbus, up to Akron and then straight north to Cleveland, much of the land to the left and above that line is pretty daggone flat. That's probably close to two thirds of the state. I'll grant you that my numerous trips from Cincinnati up 75 to Michigan and up 71 to Columbus may be biasing me, and that the southeastern areas of the state have lots of hills even leading into the Allegheny foothills, but I would not consider a majority of Ohio to be hilly.

In any case, looking forward to more pics of Clovernook.

Well, I am not basing my statement on just driving through the state.  I am basing my statement on living in the state and golfing all over it.  I would say from 70 south and from 71 east can be consider hilly or at a minimum not flat.  I can think of courses along these areas that all people would consider hilly.  Salt fork state park, deer ridge, brass ring, steubenville, the harbor club, Belmont hills, etc.  And, looking at a map using my geographical markers it is not two thirds that are completely flat.

Now you can enjoy Clovernook. ;)

Chris

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Well, I am not basing my statement on just driving through the state.  I am basing my statement on living in the state and golfing all over it.  I would say from 70 south and from 71 east can be consider hilly or at a minimum not flat.  I can think of courses along these areas that all people would consider hilly.  Salt fork state park, deer ridge, brass ring, steubenville, the harbor club, Belmont hills, etc.  And, looking at a map using my geographical markers it is not two thirds that are completely flat.

Now you can enjoy Clovernook. ;)

Chris


To clarify, I lived in Ohio for 33 years. And while Salt Fork's course is fairly hilly, you haven't played hilly Ohio golf if you haven't played Shawnee Lookout. I agree that the southeast area of the state, roughly bounded by 71 and 70, is not flat...but that's about a third of the state.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Let's take a look at the next three holes.

4th Hole, 220 yard par 3:

A monster of a par 3 that generally plays into the wind, the fourth is another half-par hole and requires a driver for much of the membership. Obviously it’s a big, tough hole featuring, not surprisingly, a huge green with significant internal contours. Another steep Moreau bunker lurks on the left for anyone who bails out away from the tree that challenges shots to a right pin.

Tee shot:


From a little closer to the green:


There aren’t many surprises on this hole, but it’s a great example of the routing genius of Langford on a tough property. Clovernook has sections that are very flat, and sections that are very severe. It lacks the gentle rolls that give interest to a great property. Faced with perhaps the most boring section of land on the course, Langford routed a long, tough par 3 over it. The result is a shot that fully grabs the player’s attention despite its lack of interesting terrain, as players still know they must hit a great shot just to make par. A secondary result is that Langford gets us past this boring section of land quickly, with a single shot on a single hole, and moves us on to some of Clovernook’s more interesting terrain. It’s a strong hole and really a brilliant piece of routing.

A big green with lots of contour makes the inevitable lag putt a tough one:


5th Hole, 530 yard par 5:

Teeing off from the same flat corner of the property, the 5th hole is a very tough par 5. The tee shot must be long and straight, as OB lurks right and a grove of trees lurks left. Personally, I’d love to see some of the trees left removed. They’re a pretty heavy-handed penalty for anyone who bails out away from the OB, as that player is already making the hole much longer than the player who hits a straight drive. I suspect they were planted to protect players coming up the first hole.

From the tournament tees, it’s a butt-puckering drive:


But there’s really a lot of room in the fairway:


The same ravine we saw on the first three holes crosses the fairway around the 330 yard mark. Note the stretch of “first cut” that extends about 40 yards beyond the end of the fairway. This is a GREAT maintenance feature for two groups of players:

1.   Long hitters, who don’t need to worry about running long into the creek off the tee. The stretch of first cut acts as a “runaway truck ramp” for them, letting them hit a big tee shot and trust it to get the brakes applied but still receive a decent lie if the drive was straight.
2.   Short hitters, who can’t carry the ravine on their second shot. The stretch of first cut lets them lay up close to the stream and trust that they’ll receive a decent lie so that they can easily clear it on their third shot. The alternative would be to play to the end of the fairway, leaving a big carry of about 175 yards to the top of the ravine on the other side.

The second shot is a somewhat lengthy one over the ravine. Note the “runaway truck ramp” cut of light rough:


Another look at the ravine:


Upon reaching the other side of the ravine, you can see the Langford and Moreau hallmark of testing players within the final 70 yards of a hole. Bunkers line the landing area, making the layup difficult for stronger players and also dotting the path to reaching the green in two with peril. The green is another classic push-up constructed by Moreau with scary bunkers on either side and a steep fallaway long. This is a rare par 5 on which par feels very satisfying, but it’s far from the most difficult three-shotter at Clovernook.

It’s a treacherous landing area for the layup. It would be great to see some Moreau shaping restored to these bunkers so they looked even more intimidating from the DZ:


A bunker right dominates the approach to a ticklish green:


6th Hole, 163 yard par 3:

For my money, this is the most obviously Langford and Moreau designed hole on the course. The tee shot features one of their legendary, gaping “eyebrow” bunkers fronting a steeply perched green with deep bunkers on either side. The shaping here is wonderful and this hole feels a bit like a smaller version of the fantastic 10th at Lawsonia, which many (myself included) consider to be one of the greatest long par 3s in the world. The strategy of the holes works similarly: the gaping bunker front right really isn’t in play, but scares many players into a pulled tee shot that is doomed to find the deep bunker left, from which the green runs away toward the right side. A significant false front also awaits shots that come up short. Despite the small green, two-putts can’t even be guaranteed from 15 feet. It’s a simple but elegantly constructed hole that, while appearing straightforward, can really wreak havoc with a player’s subconscious and induces a lot of poor swings.

Like the superb 10th at Lawsonia…


…the 6th at Clovernook features a bunker short that subconsciously pushes tee shots toward the steep left greenside bunker:


Also like Lawsonia’s 10th, the 6th at Clovernook features a false front and lots of movement, requiring delicate shots from players who miss the green:
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Very interesting.... essentially, if you took this 6th hole design and put it in this 4th hole setting, you'd have the 10th at Lawsonia nearly cloned.   ;D

I defiinitely agree with you that those bunkers on this par 5 would be easy to restore to the 'eyebrow' look, which of course also adds more challenge to clear them with any bunker blast escape needing to clear a higher grass 'eyebrow' mound. 

I don't know how they could possibly allow any more growth on those trees on the left, off the 5th hole tee shot, however.  At least from the photo, it looks like that narrow driviing shoot to the fat of the first LZ, looks like it may have reached its functional most extreme challenge to hit the drive precisely.  Would that be fair to say?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
I think that's fair to say.

To be fair, though, the photo is taken from the tournament tee which is really stretched a long way back. From the other tees, there's no real chute effect on that hole at all. The trouble from the members' tee is a grove of more newly planted trees left of the fairway some 200 yards out.

Clovernook's back tees were added several years ago. While they keep the course a bit more relevant under the onslaught of technology, I think the course plays much better from the members' tees. As someone who usually plays around 6600-6800 if it's an option, I play one tee up at Clovernook (around 6400). The reason is that a lot of the back tees feel a bit shoehorned in, like the 5th in the photo.

Overall, I think Clovernook has done a fairly good job of managing their tree growth. They could stand to lose a few for the sake of the turf, but I don't think they really impede on lines of play very often. The club does a very good job of keeping limbs cut back and things like that too. I'm a fan of the tall, stately oak and sycamore trees on the property. I'm obviously not as high on some of the more recently planted "ornamental" trees out there, but there also aren't very many of them.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thanks for the tour, Jason.

I'm pretty sure that Archie Simpson (designer of Murcar, and assistant to Old Tom Morris on Cruden Bay and Dornoch) was the head pro at Clovernook in the early days.  Do you have any information on his tenure there, and is it possible he assisted L&M in the design and construction?

Thanks in advance and keep the tour coming.

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Well, I am not basing my statement on just driving through the state.  I am basing my statement on living in the state and golfing all over it.  I would say from 70 south and from 71 east can be consider hilly or at a minimum not flat.  I can think of courses along these areas that all people would consider hilly.  Salt fork state park, deer ridge, brass ring, steubenville, the harbor club, Belmont hills, etc.  And, looking at a map using my geographical markers it is not two thirds that are completely flat.

Now you can enjoy Clovernook. ;)

Chris


To clarify, I lived in Ohio for 33 years. And while Salt Fork's course is fairly hilly, you haven't played hilly Ohio golf if you haven't played Shawnee Lookout. I agree that the southeast area of the state, roughly bounded by 71 and 70, is not flat...but that's about a third of the state.

I will clarify as we'll, I have lived in the state for over38 years, played Shawnee lookout and do not agree on your one third area calculation.  For the sake of everyone else, I agree that I do not agree with you at all!